Like I said, matches do not care about all out accuracy, they only care about you following their rules.
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Like I said, matches do not care about all out accuracy, they only care about you following their rules.
And you are surprised?
The javelin and rock throwing are also lost art... Well I guess it really boils down to what you consider art.
I never knew that the Jav and throwing rocks was on par with learning the fundamentals of marksmanship such as proper sight picture , breath control , trigger control , NPA , solid foundation and proper use of a sling.
Learning how to fire a rifle accurately with the above fundamentals makes you a much better marksman. Giving that person optics only makes them MORE effective & accurate becasue of the learned fundamentals / foundation.
DCM matches IS about marksmanship and the rules keeps a level playing field, or tries to.
If it was easy everyone would be shooting master / HM no matter what base gun they are using.
I like technology as much as the next guy and like to try things myself and see how they actually work.
That being said I am trying to hit the range tomorrow with the SIG 716
For all of his logical wisdom and multitude of degrees, cartman has missed one simple fact. Doing something well is an art. There was a time when if you couldn't hit your mark you went hungry, died, or died from hunger. This is where true skill comes into play and skill is learned through practice.
Look at the evolution of sniping over the last couple hundred years. Before there were snipers there were men whose very lives depended on stealth, the ability to navigate the land and their marksmanship skills. During the revolutionary war these men helped our country gain its freedom. They gained our nation its reputation as a nation of riflemen, even though they comprised a small portion of our soldiers. I wasn't until much later that snipers became a separate entity from the main rank and file. Snipers and the accompanying technology has come a long way but at the very core of it there remains that same fundamental art of marksmanship and fieldcraft.
Well I had thought at first you had more on the ball than Mr.CC did? I gave you a possible out with the Any Rifle Any Sight class where as long as the rifle has a working safety and a bore of less than 8mm pretty much anything under the sun is legal. You may know a lot about guns and even own some nice toys, in general you know nothing about Real Shooting, so from this point on I find your rifleman Kung Fu skills very weak where you can't even argue the basic's.
From this point on you can Please Discuss this with yourself or with someone that will be impressed with what they think you know...
Javelin and shot put is way more art than shooting, and both also generates more viewership than shooting. Any one can shoot a gun, it's not hard. I qualified expert Rifle with irons in the Army many times, and I think the only reason I am one of the few that can is because I have good eyes.
I have taken kids who never even shot a gun before and after giving them 10 minute lesson and dry fire practice, they were able to ring 11" gongs at 1000 yards with a .308 rifle on almost every shot.
I can see your point, that is why every time I take a dump I see it as an art too! Cartmann is all in favor of letting others decide what they think is art. Cartmann is not here to convince them otherwise.
Your history of snipers and freedom is very narrow. Snipers and soldiers do not win wars, Generals do.
This is a AR10 vs. M14 thread, and man! Do you guys really go out of your way to make up reasons (no matter how lame), to love the M14.
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Phil, the best way to handle cartman is like this.
This message is hidden because EricCartmann is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because EricCartmann is on your ignore list.
I do not consider shooting a real skill or art. I apologize if your feelings are hurt.
I qualified expert in Rifle and even have a Bronze Schutzelsneer, one recognized by the United States Army, the other by the German Bundeswehr.
I am into many things, motorcycle road racing, motocross, snowboarding, golf, etc... Now those are real sports that takes skillz! Skillz that I have.
Please discuss...
I like technology as much as the next guy and like to try things myself and see how they actually work.
That being said I am trying to hit the range tomorrow with the SIG 716
The annoying part is that I've done all sorts of stuff to my m1a loaded in order to try and get it to shoot almost as well as my 16" 308 AR did when I wasn't paying attention. I remember being pissed off because I couldn't get better than 1MOA average for 30 rounds with it now 20rds with an extreme spread of less than 1.5MOA is a hell of a challenge.
Monday Bump!
What more about Rifle Markmanship do I need to know?
I do not consider shooting a real skill or art. I apologize if your feelings are hurt.
I qualified expert in Rifle and even have a Bronze Schutzelsneer, one recognized by the United States Army, the other by the German Bundeswehr. I got Gold Scores for the Schutzelsneer, but they gave me Bronze because it was my first time. What more markmanship do I need more than this? I qualified among fit men that could hump for miles and not among bunch of fattie old guys with coke bottle for glasses bragging about their markmenship skillz.
I am into many things, motorcycle road racing, motocross, snowboarding, golf, etc... Now those are real sports that takes skillz! Skillz that I have.
Please discuss...
I shoot LR Service Rifle with an AR10. So does everyone else who wins these days with very few exceptions.
It's a better gun.
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Why the hell would anyone switch to an AR10 for 200-600 yard shooting?
Nobody would switch. There's nothing to gain.
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I have 3 m1a's and sass will out shoot my m1a's ,the sass has less moving parts so it will shoot better than m1a , but I like m1a's for me its just enjoy the m1a my father carried one when he was over sea's ,just my 2 cents if you have friends with both shoot them both and that might help ,geoff3
Sure there is. AR10's are easier to scope, any scope, even an ACOG if you so desire. Can't run and ACOG on a M14. AR10s also have a better selection of barrels and triggers, which are 2 very critical components for all out accuracy.
Read the previous quote. He seemed to be refering to NRA/CMP Service Rifle matches. Nobody would switch if CMP would allow it.
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Yes. I'm sure.
The points you'd lose from every yard line due to recoil. M14s didn't go away because they won't shoot; it's because they were harder to shoot.
I've got both. The only sensible use for an AR10 is LR.
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I wouldn't use anything other than a 223 AR for up to 600 yard service rifle. I'll try out a garand or m1a to be special but not for serious shooting.
Now for the 1000 yard line I have heard they are using AR10s loaded with 185s and 190s and lots of powder. That makes sense. But not on a 200-600 yard stages.
Now for the 1000 yard line I have heard they are using AR10s loaded with 185s and 190s and lots of powder. That makes sense. But not on a 200-600 yard stages.
Your right I just like the m1a more than the sass , the sass is the way to go ...
The AR-10 is a good base rifle if you want to compete in the match rifle category trimmed out properly.
I believe Tubb's tried it and abandoned the platform.
Its still a poor choice compared to a Tubb 2K or properly outfitted AR15.
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It depends on the game you are playing.....
If its service rifle you are limited to service rifles which have built in limitations. If you mod a service rifle to compete in match rifle classification ( across the course ) then pick the slipperiest caliber ( 6mm, 6XC, etc) in the most accurate and easy to shoot platform. The T2K is one sweet platform but even that Carl Bernosky edged him out with a .243. Both phenom marksmen and a win came down to "X"'s.
As you said the M14 was not lacking in the accuracy dept but its a LOT harder to fire accurately for several reasons.
The last time I handled a T2K was at OK Webers booth / Camp Perry commercial row and it was a nice rifle with a painful price tag. Its on my "want to try" list.
Carl has been shooting a 6mm Hagar AR for XC shooting for quite some time now. He's also a phenomenally talented shooter who could do just as well with a bolt gun.
Tubb was the only person to ever win the National championship with a large frame AR.
Match Rifle LR is strictly a bolt gun sport. Nobody (who wins) shoots a semi-auto.
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FAL just sayin
Q: What if an SR25 was allowed at Palma ?
A: It would lose, lol.
There are several semi auto's that shoot and function well but the manual shift bolt rifle still dominates at long range and pure accuracy.
Correction the M14 went away because it wasn't the then current Service Rifle currently serving. Nothing more.........With said the subject of recoil was mentioned, 1999 then S/Sgt. Julia Watson beat all Service Rifle Shooters for the Service Rifle Championship and she did it with the M14. Her score 2361/X-110, that's shootin'.
Yes, he did and gave up in it........ then he designed and made his own rifle.. He makes more money that way too boot.
You know Carl took like 10+ years off from shooting, came back and in first year Won the big show and I think he repeated it the next.
The Wimbledon Match is a 1000yd event and only bolt actions can be used. The Farr is also fired simultaneously at the same time, this is for the Service Rifle only shooters. And I believe that the Leach Cup(LRMR) and the Porter Cup(LRSR) are set up the same way however they are fired on different days so they don't conflict with each other.
No. The M14 went the way of the dodo bird in competition because it's harder to shoot. A 2361-110x would not even be top 3 for SR in the last three years.
Team matches are an even bigger indicator. How many times since the Army first won with M16s has an M14 equipped team won the National Trophy Team match? Or at Inter-Service? My guess is going to say maybe once or twice.
There's also nothing that says a match rifle in LR cannot be a semi-auto; there's just no reason to do it.
I want to say that the Wimbeldon cup goes to whoever the match winner is regardless of class. The Farr trophy is the high SR score in the Wimbeldon match. Theoretically you could win both the Farr trophy and Wimbledon cup at the same time with an SR.
Tubb went away from the AR10 because it did not work well as a match rifle. The rifle he came up with is essentially perfect for Highpower shooting.
Carl also has probably the highest winning percentage of anyone in the sport; he's pretty much our Michael Schumacher.
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A win is a win no matter what the score is, however you missed the bigger picture The Service Rifle Championship was won by a women driving a M14, against top off the line at that time, rat guns. How many times I don't know but when the Marines drug out the M14 for the Nationals in 1999 they handed everyone there heads on a platter, however Camp Perry's NTT traditionally has been a all Army show, Inner-Service(Pac-Fleet, Atln-Fleet) traditionally have been a Marine and Navy show.
As Nez said earlier, the 1000yds record still stands and is held by a Marine shooter with a M14........
Your Right there is nothing in the rules that say's LR cannot be Semi-Auto, but they can't compete on equal footing that's why rifles are grouped within there class Match Rifles against March Rifles, Service Rifles with Service Rifles and Palma Rifles with Palma Rifles. Good question though and I truly don't know the answer, while the Wimbledon/Farr/Atkins are fired at the same time I think if any Gasser(M-1/M14/M110/M16) were too take the overall win, they would still be awarded the Farr with overall high score. But I will ask someone who knows much more than I about this and get back........
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The Marines did not win the NTT in 1999. The only time an M14-team has beat the mouse gun was in 96...the first year after the Army won. The Marines stopped using M14s after 1997, which probably means Watson won Nationals with an M16 in 1999.
What 1000 yard reccord still stands with the M14? Unless your info was updated this year, it is probably wrong. I know the 1000 yard Inter-Service reccord is 200-11, and is held by an Army shooter and an AR10.
I don't see why you are arguing that the M14 went away for any other reason than that it was harder to shoot well. Your one example is based around one shooter, and it's also wrong.
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I think the record nez is referring to is in a line of fire where AR10s are not allowed. Plus this is just one comp out of many and doesnt change the fact that you can buy an ar-10 that is capable of near 1/2 moa accuracy with factory ammunition. You cannot have that in an m1a at any price.
For those who say the M14 is outdated and can't stand up against the AR10, here's a quote from another board where we were discussing M14 chamberings. Someone decided to start an AR vs M14 debate and this is one of the facts that came out…
[quote author=Rtheurer link=topic=3836082.msg36350694#msg36350694 date=1391606451]
A National Match M14 won the NRA Long Range Service Rifle Championships again this last year (2013). Since the shooter is a team mate, I can tell yo uits not an easy venture at all. That gun flat out shoots however. (I shot it at Camp Bullis in 2009.)
We had a discussion after one of the team Matches and he had to actually guess where his next bullet was going to impact until it had about 5 rounds on it and the barrel got hot. Not an easy task since in a shoot off you only get 3 sighting shots. It took some time to figure out how it wanted to act as he shot it.
With that being said I would rather slam my manhood in a car door than shoot a Service Rifle at 1000 yards...
They can still get it done over the AR 10 and AR 15's Just takes a whole lot of work.
The ALL Army Reserve Team havnt been able to procure a proper budget to move into the M110 arena. So we are using what is available. After we dropped the 90gr 223 program the rusty ole lock got popped open to the Armory and they dug out all the NM M14's that had been built maybe 10 or 15 years ago.
There are a few guys onthe team that have built there own rifles and shoot them. ( M110)
So Captian Freeman ( The legend as we call him) had three choices. Shoot or Barrow his own M110 if he had one. Shoot his XTC rifle 223. or grab a NM14 off the truck and shoot it.
The AMU has a better accountant. They are shooting the M110 for some time now.
My personal Opinion on the M110 (for 1000 yards) is that they may shoot well and are a whole lot easier to keep shooting well. It has a 20" barrel two inches shorter than the M14. The sight radius is shorter than the M14 and if you have ever stuck that square post onto a 1000 yard target the more sight radius you have the better. We as a Team dont shoot 1000 yards very much. Only twice really. Inter Service Matches at Quantico and Camp Perry. XTC is the real mission along with training troops and most reciently the Squad Designated Markman (SDM). Which by the way shoots the M14 SAGE stock rifle. Or what ever they bring to training.
A couple of the team mates has spent alot of time over at the Rock Island Arsonal putting together the SDM rifles and Im quite amazed how much better they shoot in the Aluminum Chasiss. Even Down range where they get beat all to heck.
There are 5 of us on the team that shoot Long Range with the Palma Rifle and Any rifle. 3 of those five are on the National Long Range Team. One is even a Wind Coach/Staff.
RussT
[/quote]
Tony.
[quote author=Rtheurer link=topic=3836082.msg36350694#msg36350694 date=1391606451]
A National Match M14 won the NRA Long Range Service Rifle Championships again this last year (2013). Since the shooter is a team mate, I can tell yo uits not an easy venture at all. That gun flat out shoots however. (I shot it at Camp Bullis in 2009.)
We had a discussion after one of the team Matches and he had to actually guess where his next bullet was going to impact until it had about 5 rounds on it and the barrel got hot. Not an easy task since in a shoot off you only get 3 sighting shots. It took some time to figure out how it wanted to act as he shot it.
With that being said I would rather slam my manhood in a car door than shoot a Service Rifle at 1000 yards...
They can still get it done over the AR 10 and AR 15's Just takes a whole lot of work.
The ALL Army Reserve Team havnt been able to procure a proper budget to move into the M110 arena. So we are using what is available. After we dropped the 90gr 223 program the rusty ole lock got popped open to the Armory and they dug out all the NM M14's that had been built maybe 10 or 15 years ago.
There are a few guys onthe team that have built there own rifles and shoot them. ( M110)
So Captian Freeman ( The legend as we call him) had three choices. Shoot or Barrow his own M110 if he had one. Shoot his XTC rifle 223. or grab a NM14 off the truck and shoot it.
The AMU has a better accountant. They are shooting the M110 for some time now.
My personal Opinion on the M110 (for 1000 yards) is that they may shoot well and are a whole lot easier to keep shooting well. It has a 20" barrel two inches shorter than the M14. The sight radius is shorter than the M14 and if you have ever stuck that square post onto a 1000 yard target the more sight radius you have the better. We as a Team dont shoot 1000 yards very much. Only twice really. Inter Service Matches at Quantico and Camp Perry. XTC is the real mission along with training troops and most reciently the Squad Designated Markman (SDM). Which by the way shoots the M14 SAGE stock rifle. Or what ever they bring to training.
A couple of the team mates has spent alot of time over at the Rock Island Arsonal putting together the SDM rifles and Im quite amazed how much better they shoot in the Aluminum Chasiss. Even Down range where they get beat all to heck.
There are 5 of us on the team that shoot Long Range with the Palma Rifle and Any rifle. 3 of those five are on the National Long Range Team. One is even a Wind Coach/Staff.
RussT
[/quote]
Tony.
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I don't know about consistency 1/2 MOA once barrel is warmed up... but all Cartmann did was bolt barrels on a couple of AR10s, a Noveske 21" on one AR10, and a 16" Rainier Arms Schillen Ultra Match on the other AR10, and out of the box the Noveske was 1/2 MOA for that first 5-shot group at 100 yards. The Rainier Arms could have been if it had a higher mag scope on it (could not get consistent POA with ACOG TA11)
First 5 shot group out of this barrel, a Noveske 21" Barrel (Break In? HA!)
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looks like that M14 took a lot of time and money and that it found the "Magic Headspace"
sight radius? you mean they were using iron sites at 1000 yards? Why not just have a rock throwing competition to prove our "real markmanship" LOL hahahaahah
Tony.[/QUOTE]
Captain Freeman is an exceptional shooter and had an exceptional M14.
But look at the Palma team match and the Farr trophy results for 2013; consistently good scores for the regular Army.
Or look at all of the National reccords that have been broken by the AR10. I'm pretty sure the Army has claimed practically every team reccord because they have guns that are capable of cleaning the target and do it repeatedly.
It is very lucky to find an M14 that can do just as well. You might build 20 guns, and 1 of them will be an absolute hammer. You can build 20 AR10s, and all 20 of them will shoot sub-moa at 1000 for 20 shots.
That's not counting the sights. You can make a 1/4 MOA sight for an AR10 that is dead nuts accurate. You can hand fit and make a pretty good 1/2 MOA rear sight for an M14, but it's not going to be 1/2 on every click.
On top of that, it's a fragile system that can go to crap pretty quickly. Sights fail. Bedding cracks and degrades. It's not just a stroke of luck to build a good M14, it's just as much luck to keep it shooting.
The old saying "2 is 1, 1 is none" doesn't apply to an M14. It's actually "3 is 1". There's always your primary gun that is shooting today, your backup gun, and your other gun that is being worked on because it won't shoot.
The longer sight radius and barrel is not pretty much outweighed by all of the following factors. I can show up to the 1000 yard line with an AR10 and expect to shoot a 190 or better. It is just a plain out better gun for 1000 yard service rifle, and everyone knows it.
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with my experience on the m1a/m14 and the ar design, owning both a loaded standard m1a and a rock river nma4 in 5.56 not 308. they have the same group size. i was shooting black hills 77gr nm and federal 168gr smk. not one was better than the other.
on a side note. i notice there is some seriously bad douche baggery on this forum. and like one guy said everyones a sniper/commando.
on a side note. i notice there is some seriously bad douche baggery on this forum. and like one guy said everyones a sniper/commando.
You probably wouldn't do half as well even if you were given a scope. I doubt you'd be anywhere close to the top if you got to use your bipod.
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Oh please... shooting is an old man sport and really takes no skills. Anyone can be a good shooter. ANYONE. All it takes is time.. time to know the gun. Knowing the gun means knowing all aspects, how to properly reload, how to properly set it up, knowing the chamber dimension and knowing how to measure throat erosion, etc, etc, etc and lastly lots of practice.
Why are you here again? On a shooting forum of all places?
It's an doesn't take any skill because almost anyone can aspire to be the best? That's pretty shitty logic.
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I am on a shooting forum because I like guns, always have and always will. I am pretty much bored of shooting though, only time I really enjoy it now is when I take new shooters out to teach them.
Yes! anyone can be good at shooting. It does not take much skill, you can be old and fat and still be good at shooting.
What conditions? you mean you forgot your gloves when it was 40 degrees outside so you when you drove up to the firing line you had to put your hands in your pocket while you get out of the Honda?
I have been to shooting competitions before. what is so offensive by saying anyone can be a good shooter?
- you can be a female and shoot good
- you can be fat and shoot good
- you can be a regular viagra user be a good shooter
- you can have no hair and be a good shooter
- you can have dentures and be a good shooter
- you can be a uncoordinated person who was picked last in Little League and shoot good
- you can be bad at math and be a good shooter
- you can be ugly and be a good shooter
- you can be gay and be a good shooter
Saying anyone can shoot is actually a good thing for our hobby.
Sorry if your guys' feelings are hurt.
Please Discus...
I feel dumber for reading the things that you write.
Basically what it comes down to is you are a poor shooter, and because you are not naturally gifted at it (since it takes work), that it's not something that it is worth pursuing.
It's sad that you need to tell yourself that you're better than a balding old fat man to feel adequate.
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