Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

[clmayfield]

I am not really a vintage sniper rifle guy, but the CMP is hosting these vintage sniper competitions and my local club does an Axis vs Allies comp where we can use rifles that follow the CMP Vintage Sniper Rifle Guidelines. It is a 200 yard comp. I was thinking about putting together a build for these comps.

My question to all of you afficianados out there is if you could build the best rifle for this comp, what would you go with? The rifle / optic combo has to have been issued or it needs to be a modern substitute.

My 2 options are:
1) M41B build using a 96 Swede in 6.5 X 55 with an Ajack 4X scope or
2) 1903A4 clone using either an 8X Unertl (if I can find one for a reasonable price), a Leatherwood Malcolm 6X, a Winchester A5, or an M84

Whatever I use will be accurized to an extent (trued, using a new issue barrel cut to the same contour), but fiberglass bedding is not legal, nor are modern triggers.

Does anyone have an opinion about which one of these platforms will yield the best results? I know National Match Armory builds sub-MOA guns on the 1903 platform. I like the high power of the Unertls, but for some reason, I am wary of external adjustments. Are those concerns unfounded? It seems like the optics system of the M41B is pretty good and the 6.5X55 is accurate and lightly recoiling. Obviously, between the 6.5 or 30 cal, there are plenty great bullet choices available (which is why I am steering clear of the 8mm Mausers).

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

It is a range gun, the external adjustmenst are a non-issue.

I would opt for a swedish mauser, the carl gustavs have an excellent rep for accuracy.
http://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles-m41B.html

You don't say if you have a budget, I'm assuming cost is not a huge factor.

If you wanted to get your foot in the door, you could put together a 91/30 Nagant for a reasonable cost.

I don't see the lee enfield on your list, they were one of the best sniper rifles issued in the war.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Thanks! Cost isn't a huge factor. Considering these are built off of mil surps, they ydon't get as expensive as a tactical build, but I would find it difficult shelling out for an 8X Unertl.

I saw the Samco M41B's. I am wondering how that would shoot right out of the box. I am also wondering about the type of mods I would make (action truing, barrel swaps) and who would do the work... that is the drawback of the M41, vs lots of folks knowing how to work a 1903.

My understanding about the Mosins is that the Soviet shooters were great, but the rifles were not all that accurate because of production issues. There is a lot to fix there.

The Lee Enfields are supposed to be great, but aren't they pretty expensive and also, I know nothing about the .303 British. Actually, the 8mm has me scared about the German Mausers as well. I have an unreasonable prejudice towards more common calibers.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

look at the M1917 enfield too, not the pattern 14 british variant, but the US variant in 30.06... some were built as the M1918 sniper rifle, but none that I know of have survived

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Surprisingly, the 1918 is not on the eligible list. I assume they mounted the same optics on that as they did with the 1903A4?

Eligible rifles and optics are on pages 29 and 30 here:
http://odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

I have read around and it seems like there are a ton of smiths who have worked on accurizing the 1903, which points me back to a 1903A4 replica or a 1941A1 replica.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

While fiberglass bedding is not allowed, wooden and paper shims, etc., have been traditional means of improving inlets to gain accuracy in competitions where actual glassbedding is banned.

The Finn M-39 was basically a Mosin-Nagant that was restocked and shimmed with wooden wedges. When my Brother shot on the Ft. Sill base Rifle Team, they improved their Garand stock inlets with dampened paper, dried in place. Legality may be questionable, but it works.

Given the choice between the Swede and the Springfield, I lean toward the Swede. They always seemed to clean up at the Military Bolt Gun matches back when I lived in NJ.

Besides, the Springfield's recoil was more wearing/tiring than I was comfortable with on a long afternoon in a comp. I parted with mine for just that reason. Looking back, it was a bad decision, but I'd still prefer the Swede for the comp.

The M41 is legal with the (non-issue) Weaver K-4, and another source. Images of original M41 scopes and mounts. Please note that the K-4's 3.3" eye relief is too short for the B-Square Scout type scope mounts. While offset rings might alleviate this, the bent bolt handle conversion then becomes a likely need.

Greg

 

[dieselten]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While fiberglass bedding is not allowed, wooden and paper shims, etc., have been traditional means of improving inlets to gain accuracy in competitions where actual glassbedding is banned.
Greg </div></div>

I just read the NRA rule book regarding these old snipers. Epoxy bedding and any type of shims are not allowed.

The Springfield that uses the Unertl 8x (or variant) is a 1903A1 based on the 1903 action, not a 1903A4 which is based on the 1903A3 action.

The external adjustments of a serviceable Unertl scope are ROCK solid and 100 times more reliable and repeatable than an Ajack scope or any other original internally adjustable scope. In fact they are better than most new scopes too.

The only issue you will have with the Unertl is comb height. The 1903 C stock has an ass load of drop to the comb and you will be resting the bottom of your chin on the comb when shooting at 600 yards.

Also, you will need to become familiar with the mount adjustments. The click value of an externally adjustable scope is determined by the distance between the bases. The original military issued 7.2" hole spacing yielded .25 inch per hundred yards clicks, not .25 MOA. Also the turrets are graduated like a micrometer so you will need to familiarize yourself with that.

One last thing, you can get a 8x commercial Unertl 1.125 or 1.25" scope for under $600 maybe even less. You only need to remove the recoil spring assembly to make it legal. In case you are not familiar, the 1.25 or 1.125 designation is the objective diameter size of the scope.

Oh, and you can buy a 35% reducing power eye piece that would make a 10x or 12x scope less than 8x - a possible option if you found a good deal on a 10-12x scope.

I have built a bunch of these and they are all under MOA shooters. All the M41B guys will be calling you sir and walking 2 steps behind you!!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Beautiful rifle, Dieselten! I might go that direction. Feckers are allowed and seem to be available fro pretty cheap and are a suitable substitute. I could also get a new Malcolm Leatherwood for pretty cheap as well... a 6X, which should be plenty of magnification to win it. No recoil springs are allowed, so I am afraid to buy a Unertl and destroy it. Is that a valid concern?

Could I start with a 1903 or a 1903a3 to get to a 1903a1? What are the differences there?

I think the Swede is a good choice because of the caliber and because of the fact that the 96's were not really being churned out for wartime purposes. But I understand it is pretty easy to get a 1903 to shoot.

 

[dieselten]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

I have never removed a recoil spring from a Unertl but I know you do not have to destroy it. It will slide off after unscrewing the eye piece and sliding everything off, I think.

I would stick with a Unertl for competition because of the highly accurate and repeatable mounts, they are perfect for competition (that is what they were designed for). The new Leatherwoods will not have a mount as good as a Unertl and the Feckers are REALLY REALLY old so you will probably find dirty tubes/scopes with messed up lenses and worn out mounts. Do yourself a favor and get a Unertl.

Whether you could start with a 1903 or a 1903A3 is up to the rules of your club. I don't think the NRA would allow it at Camp Perry though. The difference is mainly that the A3 has the rear sight mounted on the rear receiver bridge while the 03 has the rear sight mounted on the barrel. The rear sight will be removed for scope use so I don't see why you can't use the A3 but you better check the rules. Besides, the A3 is an ugly bitch, wartime production and all. The 03's are graceful and beautiful compared to the A3.

The Swede can be very accurate but the difference will come from the scope. With twice the magnification and a world class mount/adjustment system you will be miles ahead with a 1903/Unertl.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Actually, they are reproducing the Malcolms and they are nitrogen purged:

New Malcolms

They have some pretty cool mounts as well:
Malcolm Mount

That mount is pretty cool and legal, but not really faithful to the original. I read that Malcolms were original issue along with the Unertls.

On the other hand, an original Unertl will only increase in value.

 

[pawprint]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

If you can use a Nagant, many pre war (war with Nazi Germany) snipers wore Zeiss 4x scopes, this may give you an advantage over the "remake" type scopes, even though they would have more power. The 7.62x54 rifles, cheap and some shoot really well with good ammo.

 

[dieselten]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Click adjustments are illegal in BPCR shooting (which that mount was designed for). It is friction adjustment, the Unertls have actual clicks and are re-zeroable. Also the objective is very small, Unertl has 1.0, 1.25, or 1.5" that you can use in your matches.

Good place to start looking but he is full retail
http://unertl.alexweb.net/index.htm

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Thanks, Diesel. The Unertls are expensive, but do appear to be the best option, especially if I can run down a non-USMC marked one. From what I can see, though, the Feckers are just as old as the Unertls. Am I missing something?

 

[dieselten]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

I think the last Feckers were made around 1950. I remember buying brand new in the box Unertls from Champions Choice in the early 1990's, not NOS, they were new production. Thats at least 40 years difference.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Carter,
I read the list and IMO the top of the line outfit would be a Springfield with an 8x target scope. I have quite a few of the Unertls, Lymans, Feckers, Lischerts etc. Some are 8x. Feckers are not marked for Mag, but otherwise very nice, with very good Adj. They made scopes up to the early 60's but were fading. John Unertl worked for them, then went on his own. A two stage Springfield trigger can be made smooth beyond belief. At least some of the old G&H, Hoffmans, Owens etc. I have are. It may be a lost art now. I wonder why the M70 was off the list. It would be a bit more accurate than the Springfield, IMO. Faster lock time. I would guess a Lyman 8X would be the best bet for the money.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have quite a few of the Unertls, Lymans, Feckers, Lischerts etc.</div></div>
rth1800, where can the average joe find these scopes? Does someone have a bunch they are selling?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I wonder why the M70 was off the list. It would be a bit more accurate than the Springfield, IMO. Faster lock time. I would guess a Lyman 8X would be the best bet for the money. </div></div>

The theoretical cutoff date for the CMP comp is military issue by 1953. The M70 was in use in the Korean War, so I guess the sticking point is "military issue." There were a hodge podge of Mod 70's in use, but they were not general issue. The 1903 and its variants, however, were.

I guess the other issue is that the M70 is really a modern rifle. I think the point of the match is to feature non-modern rifles. Originally, they wanted all original rifles, but after some debate, they realized only very rich people could afford to field these weapons and even the people with enough money to field them probably would not want to shoot them.

The 1903 -> 1941 looks to be the most expensive combo available, but it is probably the best target rifle of the bunch because you get the 8X magnification and a very accurate platform in the 1903.

If it were WWII, I think the m-41B was hard to beat. They were all very accurate, featured good workmanship, had a great caliber, and the Ajack scope is pretty good. The Unertl is great for target shooting, but there is a reason people no longer mount 25" long telescopes on their rifles. It is not the most portable of designs.

Further, there are cheek weld issues. The m-41B did have an issued leather cheek piece. From what I can tell, the 1941 did not.

 

[303_enfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

Option three

CMP has M1D's and M1C's for sale CHEAP.

Op 4)
Scope less "T" 's (Enfield) cost $500 or less. Add repro mount $120 and repro #32 scope $500-600

Have fun and good shooting.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Opinions Needed: Vintage Sniper Rifle Match Build

I have an M1D on order right now. I can't imagine it would be as accurate as a 1903 and you have 20 seconds to get the shot off, so the semi-auto operation isn't really a help.

We will see how she shoots.