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Advanced Marksmanship Shot group at 600 yds

Re: Shot group at 600 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">from the experts, what is a good group for 600 yards? </div></div>

Most of these guys that post on the internet shoot 1/4 MOA at any given range, on any given day, in any given conditions, but rarely have pics of the groups to prove it.

Most of the guys that post and degrade groups of other shooters without constructive criticisms could win any match they enter, that is if they were not so busy banging their super model girlfriends or driving their ferrari's up the PCH.

Just my .02

Scott
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

that's pretty funny. I always wondering about some things. I think the only way to learn is with help. Take the advice for the experience ones and apply 110 percent. May not be the best ever. But I think the goal is to be the best of my abilites. Some people our truely gifted in shooting. But I think they are more humble in there shooting capablites.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

For me, a good group at 600 is a half MOA vertical. For horizontal it all depends on what the wind is doing. With no wind, I'd strive for the same 1/2 MOA. With some wind (5-10 mph), I'd strive for 1 MOA. With the wind you've mentioned, a minute and a half would be just fine with me. Please note that I say "strive for" and not that I shoot that well all the time. I'd also suggest as others have to do load testing closer in. Try shooting your loads at 200 and see how they do before the shot cone gets way out there. It also helps to get a good shooter behind the rifle to see its capability. I'm not saying your a bad shot but there has been times when I thought I was doing well, and then Longrage gets behind my rifle and shoots groups half the size as mine... then I go home and cry myself to sleep.

BTW, your groups look fine, you just need less vertical.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

One more thing. You mentioned trigger trouble. Whats wrong with it? Too much pull weight?
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

My trigger is set at 1 pd. I think I might not be placing my check onto the gun enough. I kinda of hold my head somewhat off the butt of the rifle. Don't know if this is the correct way or not. I see some pics of people with their check buried into the butt of the rifle.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I shoot from inside to my hundred yd mark to my load work up. Once I have that done. I step it back to the 600yd mrk. Is it better to shoot at 100 300 600 etc. ?
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Do you torque your scope and bedding bolts before shooting? If not you might want to check them.

Other suggestions: Try chronographing your loads. Note the ES and SD.

You might also want to record your shooting conditions like temp and barometric pressure as it appears you are shooting under colder temperatures.

Next step is to take the call your powder manufacturer to see how temperature sensitive your powder and primer combo are. H4350 is pretty good at hotter temps but I don't know how it performs at freezing temps.

Lastly, you might want to look at your shooting platform. I would place a level and easy reference movement measure like a cup of water on the bed near where you shoot. Both you and your spotter will need to be real still and when you break your shots you need the spotter to take a quick look at the spirit level and glass of water to make sure the truck bed is not moving before you break the shot. No easy feat as the beds suspension is constantly moving.

I will bet ya if you get your SD down to less than 10 on the chrono with the velocity around 2800 you will find off a solid platform you will achieve your accuracy goal.

Lastly, you might want to shoot at incrementally longer ranges. If you have the ability you can shoot for accuracy and velocity at 100,200, 300 yards through the chrono. From there if you record the other conditions with a Kestrel handheld you can plug in your zeros for other ranges using the JDM software on the net and develop your come ups to whatever range you are shooting. Your loads should nail the target out to 300 as the wind effects are usually neglible. The disadvantage of going straight to six is you really can not benefit from knowing whether its the load, your gear or you.

Let us know how it works out.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Trigger pull is fine.

As long as your shooting position exhibit a consistent natural point of aim and full field of view through your scope you are good to go.

Inconsistent or poor natural point of aim will result in a variety of problems.

Way to check is: before you break your shot, can you close your eyes, go through a full breathing cylcle similar to breaking the shot and open your eyes and still be exactly on target? If not, your body position needs slight adjustment as you are aiming the rifle with your arms and not your body.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

My SD were around low 2993 to 2811 fps. I shot only 7 shots through the crono. Should I should more through it or work on narrowing it down. If I need to narrow it down how? I'am shooting H4831SC at 48.5 compressed Col 2.820. I have not check my inch pds. I will though. I have had another person ask that. Tongiht when I shot, I made a effort to do this technique. When I open my eyes I was still on the target.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My trigger is set at 1 pd. I think I might not be placing my check onto the gun enough. I kinda of hold my head somewhat off the butt of the rifle. Don't know if this is the correct way or not. I see some pics of people with their check buried into the butt of the rifle. </div></div>

Try resting that 8 pound ball on the stock. Free weight that you can add to the rifle.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

New shot group at 600yds alot better. Wind at back. Still need to work more on the trigger control. I pulled my than 50% to the left. But it is starting to look much better. The advice is helping. Thanks
IMG00124.jpg

IMG00123.jpg
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought the less you have contact with the rifle would be better. </div></div>

only when shooting free recoil a bench rest varmint rifle in 6 ppc
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

DAR
I lose the 139/142 class bullets
grab some berger or JLK 130gr bullets grab some free fps and lose nothing in BC

Congrats on groups thus far, practice will continue to yield improvement, do you reload??

If so weigh cases....did i just say that??? times are changing
most are happy to separate by 1gr ie anything weighing 163.0 - 163.9 this assumes all weight difference directly affects case cap.

This fairly quick and painless thou i have to do it myself, i will prior to loading for camp swift
Clean up necks on case if needed most do including lapua which i will doing shortly. Never did any of this while shooting Tac but f class is alot different.

Get over to Dans website OCW and learn how to create a bitchin load
http://www.clik.to/optimalchargeweight
6br has alot of good info also

Shoot some 300yd groups for load work, closer is easier so should also build confidence

lastly move to somewhere warmer
good luck
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I do reload. I just recieved today 139 lapuas. I will try them 1st. I might try the Bergers. They shoot really good through my 243. I read some on Dans website. Pretty in depth on that. He sounds like he knows his reloading. Will have to read more and apply. Thanks for the info.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I changed my loads from 142SMKs to 139 Lapuas. I had more of a consistant load. Here is the 600 yd group shot today. It measured 4.75 inches
IMG00133.jpg

IMG00132.jpg
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Yep looking better. Since theres alot of things like weather and such drop back to 300yards a develop a load at that range then once youve got one picked out that works good go for 600yds. Really the only way you can start to see when a load shoots good is starting at the 300yd range.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I have to set up a 300yd mark. I will do that within the week. I have 2 loads I want to test. A good test group would be????
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">260 142smks 16 shots. From a cold bore shot dailing in the scope to adjusting for a 12 mph crosswind. I will post a 730 yd shot this week. If I get home in time to shoot. This is with the adjustments of elvation and windage shots.


</div></div>

That's a seriously accurate round, I've seen teh 260 142gr at 1000 yards and it's about the flattest bullet I've ever watched the trace on!

 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Ive had this 260 since Dec. I had it built. The 6.5 bullets have such great numbers on their BCs. Thought I would try one. The bullet just bucks the wind alot better. Nebraska is all about the wind. The two should be a good match.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

dar, good job on improving your shooting and posting about it. Like some have said, many people criticize and brag but never put up their own targets and aren't very helpful.

You've improved a lot, good work.

Shawn
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I'am a work in progress. Alot to learn. Loading is the other key. Throwing two stones and trying hit something with it. We got 9 inches of snow yesterday. So won't shoot for a few days. I don't mind to be criticized. It gives me a reason to try harder. I just don't like the one holers. There is alot of good shooters on this site. Who better to learn from. Thanks Shawn
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Dar, the 139's look a lot better there bro! Try the 140 Bergers as well. My 260 Ackley loves either one equally, but I couldn't get it to like the 142 SMK's at all. Just curious if you've tried Varget in it? Mine shoots Varget more consistently & accurately than H4831SC or IMR 4350 but I know everybody's rifle will be different. Just another possible combination for you...
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I have about 1500 of the 139s. I'am going to shoot a group at 300 with the current load to see how it does. Then I will try some Varget. My 308 loves it. I kinda like that powder. Even if this shoots in the current load. I still will try it. Thanks
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I shot at 1000yds today. The wind kick my butt. It was blowing between 3mph and gust up to 10mph. How do you read the wind to stay on the mark? Look at the target and if you can give me some help?

IMG00140.jpg
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

New group at 600yds. I seem to be a little hard press to tighten my groups tighter from here. Will work on trigger control. My average group now is around 5".

600yds2.jpg
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

That's very good shooting there dar. Nothing to be ashamed about that one.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Way to go! Nice shooting. Looks to be under half minute vertical and under full minute horizontal. That's what I try for, especially if there is wind involved.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I have been trying to tighten the groups. But not having any luck with that. Going to switch stocks. This one I have to raise my head up some what. I don't have a natural rest with my check. The 1000yd target I havent just haven't figure it out yet. I have only shot once from that distance. Going to set up a spot for that. May place a steel target first for some instant feedback. Thanks
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Have you tried several Diff bullets. I have had great luck running the 140 A-Max with H4350. First load was 41.7 then bumped to 42.00 after a couple hundred rounds and she tightened up a little more.

Keep trying! Good luck.

JamieD
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Haven't tried the Amaxs. I have tried the 142SMKs. I may try bumping my load another tenth of a grain. The stock is my favorite either. I have to wait got more snow last night. The Amaxs usually shoot through any gun. They are pretty consistant ammo. The 139s not quit done with them yet. Some is my ablity of shooting. Still have to work on trigger control more and the correct positions.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Great thread dar, always nice to see someone's progress instead of just the "I-got-lucky-today, so-now-my-rifle-and-load-is-sub-bla-bla-moa"..
wink.gif


Kudos for showing and telling about all of your groups! Good luck!
wink.gif
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

well posting pics isnt really proof of anything other than being more computer skilled than i,lol but this thread was pretty good. i envy your access to a 1000 yard shooting range, trying to manage that myself. making tiny one holers at the 100 yard max corps of engineers range is getting boring and fruitless. kudos for braving crappy cold and wind man. keep after it.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

dar - I shoot in the NE wind off of a bipod and I would say those are very good groups. Not many coyotes or deer going to get away from groups like that, but then I'm a hunter not an F-class shooter.

From my experience, horizontal can be the wind but it can also be your grip/trigger pull torquing the shot. I spent a lot of time dry firing at long range to break some bad habits but still not always perfect. A natural aim position helps a lot. I would say you have done a great job pushing yourself to learn and get better.

Hats off to you.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

I try a 400yd group to check load. There was a 2 oclock NNe wind at 8 mph. I got a new AI stock. Having somewhat of a hard time with hand placement. I pulled four shots. It is a 10 shot group. Alot of this bad trigger control. Need more work on this. That stock will take some time to get use to.
IMG00166.jpg


IMG00167.jpg
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long do you work for a group? When move on to idendify a target and try to for one shot hits? </div></div>

Once my load runs sub moa I quit chasing groups. 6" steel plates at 600yds would be challenging for most (but I'm sure some super secret squirrel will come on and tell me its a piece of cake and he does it all day).
One shot per target will allow you to document your data more consistently (not that I have ever gotten good at recording data).
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Do you set different targets up at different distances. Then shoot and record your data. Where I shoot I have an area from 500 to 800yds. I can set up to shoot 400 but rarely. Thanks for the info.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

When the wind is realy changing in speed; 10-15 and gusting to 25 or 30 it is very important to try to break the shot as close to the same velocity as possible. A 5 to 10 mph diff in the wind will make a huge difference on your horizontal spread the greater the distance to the target. This is best accomplished with a spotter and a wind meter. Ballistic programs are a great place to start with all your calculations. You must always go to the range and prove the information. I find that with Sierra the MOA are pretty much spot on out to about 700. At that point I may actually have to add or subtract from the MOA correction on the program. I may have missed it but what is your trigger set at? Oh yeah and we all have room for improvement!! I dont see anybody else posting groups??
Please keep us posted on the progress
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

the dope on the rifle is on the spot. I can set up at any distance up to 1000 yds and hit. The groups and the wind reading is another story. At 1000 is a different ball game on wind reading. I'am about 50 to 60 percent on hitting a 12 inch LV steel target. I don't post them because I can't show the misses with the hits. At 600 yds I can keep them within the target and usaully shoot for groups.
 
Re: Shot group at 600 yds

Interesting thread so far. I just started shooting at distance with my 308. I think I finally finalized my load. At least it's usable. I made a target from 3/8" AR400 plate (12 x 15") and hung it from a home made stand of 3/4" steel pipe.

Here are some groups from yesterday: 625yd by leica CRF, wind 5-8mph? from 11:30, right around/after sunset. Shooting from prone with bipod and rear bag. 1st round hit, then missed next 4 shots to the R of target. Adjusted scope and made next 5 shot hits (3.3", upper right group), adjusted scope again for next group (5.4", mid left--last shot glanced off edge of target--you can barely see it)

0407092010.jpg


The hit in the lower right is the 1st shot/1st round hit (again, I missed the next 4 shots to the R)


Turned the plate over and shot another 5-shot group about 5.7"
0407092010a.jpg


I'm hoping that once I get through this batch of virgin brass the accuracy of my ammunition will get even better. I'm going to have to be careful. This is starting to get addicting!!!
 
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