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"the military uses it so it must be awesome"

Bruiser_Joe

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 22, 2009
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ok i'm goin to rant, when you guys say this or something to that effect it shows how truly ignorant you are to the military purchasing process. You are giving entirely too much credit to guns i that i almost promise you the ones using them on a 2 way range hate. Not to say their aren't some guns used by the military that aren't well made weapons but making that blanket statement is entirely too generous, wether its a m249, m4, FN scar, m110, etc there are HUGE back stories and histories to every one of those guns, good and bad. Stop for the love of god thinking that just cuz the military uses something that automatically makes them worth purchasing, the "testing" your giving each gun credit for may not have been positive and yet it was still purchased because it met the x,y, and z criteria set forth by the bean counters for the cheapest price. "well my buddy who is in the national guard and has 10 rounds through a m110 said it was awesome" good for him, now i have some ocean front property in Nevada to sell you.
 
Bigjoe:

Nicely framed rant with more than a few grains of truth in it!

Reminds me of the way the astronauts at NASA used to refer to their spacecraft: "You sit in a flying Thermos bottle on top of a million pounds of highly explosive of rocket fuel all put together by the lowest bidder." It was first thought to have been said by Wally Schirra.

As you state, government-acquired stuff is not better. It simply meets the complex procurement requirements which are generally not written by the guys at the sharp end of the spear. Having worked for quite a while on the 'supplier' side of that coin, however, I can say that Socom has a better (if not perfect) model and a lot more leeway to buy the things its operational units want and need. But there is a caveat here, which is that they'll buy a lot of stuff, some to test and some to use. Just because a company claims their Sooper Snipery scopes were bought by Seals doesn't mean anything more than someone bought them and maybe used them as tent pegs or skeet targets. And, for the most part, soldiers are not professional football players. They don't hand out endorsements for weapons, scopes or Seal watches the way Howie Long will pimp anything from snow tires to feminine hygiene products.

As always, caveat emptor. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If it says Special Forces, Delta Force or Seal on it... it usually isn't.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I've bashed the M110 a time or 20 on this site. I think you can throw the M9 in there too...."yea let's give these boys a handgun that's twice the size and half as good as a Glock 19" that is why we carried 19's.
 
well also sadly the endorsement of a operator isn't the most reliable of review simply due to most operators only know what they are issued. A good percentage of even the top tiered units operators don't have a huge amount of experience with the alternatives to what they are issued. If you've only ever driven a corvette it may be a nice car but compared to what? SOCOM's method isn't anywhere near perfect as the people sitting around the table making those decisions may of at one time been operators most of the time but were a long time ago in a galaxy far away. I have personally watched weapons receive horrible AAR's only to be purchased or more money sunk into a system that nobody wants.
 
Sticky this thread....

Whenever I see mil-spec these days, it always signals to me that someone is trying to play on people's assumption that "mil-spec" means something is special. I stay away from those companies because they're intentionally using people's ignorance to sell a product. Nothing illegal about that, but I prefer to patronize businesses that make a good product and let that product speak for themselves. The good news is that the good companies and shops are well-represented on The Hide.
 
While I can confirm that military weapons are, for the most part, p.o.s., I can also attest that they are not all crap. I personally used the M110 and liked it a lot. I'm a very small framed individual and left handed, so the lower recoil and ambidextrous functions were definitely a plus. It can also hit anything the M24 can. I don't care who says it doesn't, because it does. It also utilizes the TMR, which I liked more as well.

As far as the M9, M249, and M240 series, those can go burn in hell.

Mil spec just means it passes the test with the minimum requirements possible, as cheaply as possible. So unless you are going for military accurate, look for ABOVE mil specs.
 
Mil-spec gets used by a variety of industries, guitar amplifiers for example. If you only use "mil-spec" electronics you aren't using the best, just the ones that meet particular tolerances. It's perhaps the nicest way to say "we don't use absolute crap".
 
'Mil spec' is short for military specification. The military specified a set of goals for an item based on logistics, perceived use in the field, integration with existing systems, available and future technology and standards, along with cost control and sales pitches from contractors, consultants and lobbyists.

The good thing about 'mil spec' is that it's a known quantity. But for better or for worse, 'Mil spec' meets the military's needs, at their cost, not does everything better than everything else on the planet.
 
I had the pleasure and privilege to be in units that could literally buy anything available (US, NATO, grey-market, COMBLOC, totally off-the-wall custom or commercial one-offs, etc.).

Even with that latitude we bought some real doozies that later proved to be shit, or just became obsolete over time as technology improved.

The US Government process (including SOCOM's) is only as good as the buyer's own QC monitoring. I can tell you it shocks a vendor when they get a "Show Cause" notice, "No Confidence" cancellation, or the user moves on.

The good thing about sole-source purchasing is you can nominally get what you want, with betas, modifications, or customs changes. You can get as many as you want, a long as you want, as long as you're willing to pay the no-compete price.

A smart manufacturer tries to stay ahead of the curve. Just look at a gun magazine today and the latest trend is toward smooth rails with key-mod compatibility.

If you're the buyer for a whole fleet of users you have to be more flexible and have your ducks generally in a row since you're speaking for a much bigger user audience.

If you look at even SOCOM's SOPMOD / Special Weapons Systems there are so many variations because different units work in different places and environments (some wet-maritime, but all users may deploy somewhere where it may be dry, high, dusty, or tropical).

Some work in uniform, some work in civvy or local clothes. Different tools for different missions (overt, covert, or clandestine).

There is no perfect machine, and humans want to have the next shiney thing.
 
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"the military uses it so it must be awesome"

I was fortunate enough to be able to ask for what I needed, but it wasn't always forthcoming.

I was never good at it, but it is a skill to be able to use what you have to the edge of its performance envelope.

If I am ever asked to name a new generalist skill set, one that isn't always teachable, it would be the ability to perform well, on demand, with whatever you are given.
 
It all boils down to "fanboy syndrome". Dudes think that if they buy an M40A3 or an M110 that the rifle automatically makes them an 0317 or if they walk around at night shooting hogs with NVGs on that they're on some sort of SF DA op.

Clowns really.
 
If I am ever asked to name a new generalist skill set, one that isn't always teachable, it would be the ability to perform well, on demand, with whatever you are given.

The American Special Forces Soldier was taught to use whatever his counterparts have on-hand. In many cases that might be WWII German arms and equipment (captured by the Russians, stored, then meted out as Communist aid) or obsolete COMBLOC equipment. Many post 9-11 troops are truly spoiled when it comes to gadgetry.

When the 1st Special Forces Group was reactivated in 1984 it had been off the books for over 10 years and was re-established with no equipment. Guys would literally go to the field or the first few deployments with privately-owned weapons and web gear until the Big Army system caught up. Quite the sight to see men show up with ALL sorts of rifles from WWI and WWII, ARs and CAR copies, or whatever was in the rifle rack at the house (to include shotguns and lever rifles).

It may have LOOKED ridiculous, but they came with what they were familiar and happy with. Some of those teams shot just as well or better with their own weapons as they did with Uncle's.

A friend of mine was astounded at the accuracy and rate of fire of a team armed with surplus Short Magazine Lee Enfields and M1s.
 
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"the military uses it so it must be awesome"

Ahhhh, the 1980s: The decade when all NATO armies were prepared for the Korean conflict, and the advanced ones were capable of fighting in Vietnam.

It didn't hold true only for weapons. I remember raiding the local climbing shops for Rocks and Friends so that the boys from Ft. Devens could safely climb in New Hampshire.
 
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I totally agree with the OP.

However I always assumed "Mil Spec" means HEAVY.
 
I like Best Spec.

I may have some military patterned weapons (M24A2 and Mk12Mod1) but they are tuned/built WAY over what the milspec version is.
 
Ahhhh, the 1980s: The decade when all NATO armies were prepared for the Korean conflict, and the advanced ones were capable of fighting in Vietnam.

It didn't hold true only for weapons. I remember raiding the local climbing shops for Rocks and Friends so that the boys from Ft. Devens could safely climb in New Hampshire.

Fort Devens - you might be saddened by what your old home has become.
 
mil-spec over the years included the p-39, brewster buffalo, torpedoes that didn't work, the chauchat machine gun, et al. just because the military spec'd it, doesn't mean great or even acceptable, sometimes just junque.
 
no. No. NO!

The dude at the gun store TOLD me that if the military uses it then it means it's the BEST and THAT'S why it cost so much and if I was SERIOUS about DEFENSE then I would buy TWO because everyone KNOWS that one is NONE and two is ONE!

I don't know who you are BigJoe bust CLEARLY you don't work in a gun store and are therefore just a wannabe NOOB!

I bid you good day.

:)
 
Well, the military, Army in particular, builds/buys things that have to be Private proof, meaning you need to be able to drag it behind an M1 tank for 40 miles through hard top and dirt roads and still use it. If you ever served as a Sergeant or an Instructor you know what I mean. At the end of the day the military does not need the best stuff it needs stuff that is more durable and effective in a Privates hands than any other Armys Privates with their stuff in the world, in the aggregate. They do come up with some good stuff though, hell, look at the body armor and uparmored hummers our guys have today, in my time, which was about the whole decade of the 80's, we would never have gotten that equipment for protection, we were a bit more expendable in big greens eyes. Luckily my eldest son benefited twice directly from this new body and vehicle armor technology, he has two purple heart medals but he is alive and pretty much intact because of it. If you want to buy equipment to defend your home and neighborhood the fancy stuff works, if you want to buy equipment to carry across a continent to attack your enemy you best scale down the gadgets and keep it basic. At the end of the day leave the fancy stuff for SOCOM or the other Gucci units that can pick and choose what they want because they plan for very short duration action and never have to attack along with 20 k other guys for 500 miles across a desert or the plains of central Europe over a period of weeks or months. At the end of the day to win battles/war it takes tanks and privates with 6 months of training by the hundreds of thousands to subdue even a medium sized enemy.


Contrary to what many believe these days, SOCOM and Gucci units don't win wars, Private Joe Blow does.
 
+1 for BigJoe but getting your woman to drink her beer through a straw DOES get her drunk faster, just saying....
 
ok i'm goin to rant, when you guys say this or something to that effect it shows how truly ignorant you are.


On a related rant, I get so FUCKING tired about hearing how everybody's ___________ is what the SEALs use. As many times as I've heard that, you'd think SEALs all carry around big-rig trailers with them to hold all this "awesome" gear/guns/etc. and it's never Delta/Rangers/etc. its always and only the SEALs

#$!@%$$#%@ <-- rant
 
sadly NSW happens to be in the spotlight and the select .01 percent who decided to get out and profit off their time in the military are making it hard on the active duty guys. Too many books, movies, dramatic operas, you get the point. I completely agree but its not just SEALs especially if you look at the trainers out there pushing products, there are representatives from delta, force recon, NSW, SF, rangers all pushing stuff. If the news would shut the hell up on every mission the tiered boys do it would be awesome too, let them sink back into the darkness.
 
I said this before so I will have to say this again, no disrespect meant to any of these organizations because I do respect you guys in NSW, but you need to shut the fk up a little bit, you are acting like frikken drunken Marines at a bar talking about their last mission except you seem to be doing it in books and on the news, in fairness not actual operators but the Admirals in charge. I don't begrudge any of the Gucci unit guys a job pushing whatever legal items they want to make a living but I do get a bit disturbed watching people on TV discussing a mission that just happened yesterday.

sadly NSW happens to be in the spotlight and the select .01 percent who decided to get out and profit off their time in the military are making it hard on the active duty guys. Too many books, movies, dramatic operas, you get the point. I completely agree but its not just SEALs especially if you look at the trainers out there pushing products, there are representatives from delta, force recon, NSW, SF, rangers all pushing stuff. If the news would shut the hell up on every mission the tiered boys do it would be awesome too, let them sink back into the darkness.
 
Slapchop... that's not a good attitude! ;-)

Nav Special warfare is benefitting from the fact that they are good PR for the Navy and for the DoD. My guess is that the sailors themselves are not happy about the PR game. But they and their successes make good headlines and some who are far removed from the tip of the spear are willing to compromise the good work of some really competent silent professionals because it makes political hay.

And, in all humility, anyone who has even made it through a week of BUD/S is a better man than I... I'd cut the Team members all the slack in the world. The folks who exploit the Teams' successes and skills for their own personal and political gains... Asshats. All asshats.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Remember "that guy" in bootcamp, the one that could not field strip and reassemble his rifle. "MilSpec" means it was designed with him in mind. ;)
 
Mil spec means nothing to me. Now tactical...that's a different story. National match means it's pretty good, too.
 
What is mil-spec anyway? As far as I know when the government gives out a contract the specs are classified.

I always assumed that mil-spec referred to things like thread sizes and barrel profiles so commercial and mil-spec are not interchangeable.
I didn't think it had anything to do with alloy usage or durability. I always thought anything outside the public bid arena was confidential information.
Am I wrong on this?
 
Being serious, does anyone here really buy anything because it's used by ____, probably not, but I agree, lots of weekend warriors probably do. There's no way it'll stop it as its effective, it sells shit, this just leaves the good stuff for us. Think about it, if everyone was buying the stuff we buy, prices would sky rocket and availability would suck, so let's just leave it alone.
 
Being serious, does anyone here really buy anything because it's used by ____, probably not, but I agree, lots of weekend warriors probably do. There's no way it'll stop it as its effective, it sells shit, this just leaves the good stuff for us. Think about it, if everyone was buying the stuff we buy, prices would sky rocket and availability would suck, so let's just leave it alone.

I'm sure there is a slew of folks here who buy things just because it is in service by (insert spec ops team here). All you have to do is browse the optics, bolt or gas gun sections to see what I'm talking about.

Like you said though, as long as there is a market for it, there will be those willing to cater to them.
 
Unfortunately, I use mil-spec doctors. It's about time they upgrade those.
 
Military organizations buy gear for a number of reasons, and want their personnel to believe they are using the best stuff. The USA is no different than soviet block countries in that regard. Just because the military says it is great, doesn't mean it is necessarily true. Saying that any gear is the best is merely the party line for whoever is issuing the gear..they don't want to say, "We are giving you junk, but we don't care about you", so depending on the mission and gear that is available from stuff in stock and the T.O.E. for that unit, you might get great kit, or you might get junk.....or not much at all because it is out of stock, hasn't been shipped yet, or a thousand other reasons.
 
So many stories I could tell, but they always ended up with me buying my own shit.
 
If we could have chosen which long guns we brought, I can assure you that every optic on them would have been changed. The 110 would have been switched with something else that doesn't have as many issues with misfires. Can't really complain about the 2010's. The 24's would have been replaced. The 107's would have been replaced with a PGW Timberwolf or something lighter and more accurate. Our sidearms would be different. Fight with what you have though, you make due.
 
for every 1 guy who says they don't purchase because it was used by "x" unit i see 2-3 posts in every thread talking about m40's, m110's, 24's, mk13's, etc that they are worth it because... just saying. i would shit can almost every gun i get issued and bring personal shit if i could. My personal stuff is 10x as nice as almost anything we get issued.
 
Well, I have been in for 19 years and deployed a few times...those "pieces of crap" have saved my life more times than I can count.

The Colt makes an awesome M4. I am also Sniper qualified and used the M24 in combat more than once. The M240 and 249 are badass if taken care of. The ACOG and AIMPOINT are awesome sights.

You all can criticize all you like while you pamper your weapons and optics and shoot paper. I have trained with and know how to proficiently use those (crappy) weapons.
 
"trainedkilla" i'm just goin to refer to
well also sadly the endorsement of a operator isn't the most reliable of review simply due to most operators only know what they are issued. A good percentage of even the top tiered units operators don't have a huge amount of experience with the alternatives to what they are issued. If you've only ever driven a corvette it may be a nice car but compared to what?

i never said they didn't function or were incapable of being used to protect yourself, only that the fact that they are issued does not give them some magical power over any other weapon system. tell me a crane built mk13 is somehow magically better then a GAP, Surgeon, tac ops, SAC, spartan, AI 300wm and i'll call you a fucking moron.
 
One of the problems with mass-issued equipment is the fact it's also mass-maintained. Some "Kids" will be issued a sniper rifle or machinegun and it's theirs for the duration of their time in that slot -- if you're lucky maybe three years. After that it gets issued to someone else, maybe with a data book, most often not. Little bits and pieces in the accessory kits may or may not disappear.

My guess is most (approaching 100%) units don't have a borescope so can't tell you the internal barrel condition of any of the unit's weapons, from carbine, rifle, and machinegun (and spare barrels), nor can they tell you the hours on a night vision scope or goggles' tubes.

Of course a personal or unit custom-made weapon will be better maintained, and a SOF weapon (issued to a SINGLE guy for upwards of 8-10 years) will be better and intimately maintained. I can also say that custom-issued equipment (from pistols and parachutes to SATCOM and automobiles) will be many, many times more expensive and you can't issue stuff like that to multiple battalions/squadrons and brigades/groups without some kind of base standard and specification, to be modded by the individual after issue.

It's why for the most part, for mass-issued stuff, SOCOM's individual components rely on base Mother Service issued gear, while SOCOM dollars outfit the hot-rod accessories (for instance base helicopters come from the Army, while all the exotica is installed using SOCOM money).

I chuckle when I see that someone has bought the latest and greatest item that "UNIT X" has bought, but they don't know to set it up nor use it. These folks often fit into the "More money than sense" group.
 
At the end of the day politicians actually procure this crap for the good of their districts. And surely you trust your politicians.

Well, yeah. They've done a pretty good job, so far. We wouldn't be were we are without our politicians.
 
Victory's statement:
"Fight with what you have though, you make due", struck home with me. Many is the time where the rifle I use was based on which rifle had enough ammo available for it, or some thing similar. Those on a two way range that are able to make due with what they have get my complete respect. I think the old saying goes something like "A true artist doesn't blame the instrument".
 
Remember "that guy" in bootcamp, the one that could not field strip and reassemble his rifle. "MilSpec" means it was designed with him in mind. ;)

Or the SGT that brings me his A2 and a handful of trigger parts saying, "They just fell out."