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Best home defense is no suppressor? / zero distance

Other notes: CQB is a team event, thus it requires an actual team. Don’t be daft, singleton CQB even in your own house is a big risk. While knowing the layout is an advantage, this is a game of angles.

That said there are event that can elevate that course of action in spite of the risk, such as an active shooter scenario. Just understand your essential trading your life on the gamble in an attempt to save others. It’s a commendable action but the true reality is not everyone has the sack when actually confronted with the fact that the house will always win sooner or later.
 
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What are you using for amplified hearing protection? While the sounds may be amplified to “scared deer” levels, one thing that has always been missing from the amplified muffs that I have used is directionality. Sure, I can hear the sound, but I’ve lost the ability to detect where the sound is coming from.
 
Well in classic fashion we’ve descended into the realm of the less than qualified opinions 😅 look is a free country, do whatever you want but I’d urge us all to consider the aspects of the ego at play here.

Each fight that occurs is unique. No two gunfights are ever the same…BUT you will over time notice trends…BUT to truly understand and interpret, and integrate trends you need context. Context arrives from experience, experience can be personal which while powerful profound is often statistically limited. Other forms of experience come from the institutional or organizational perspective. This is the collective organization of the members individual experiences that will shape and develop a coherent doctrinal outline for the collective, the purpose of which is to enhance the groups abilities to succeed.

“Strength of the wolf is the pack, the strength of a pack is the wolf”

Some of you are probably wondering what the I am rambling on about. Let me say it simply:

Some of the things I am reading in this thread are fuck’en retarded. Comments that lack any grounded perspective other than it’s just been regurgitated over and over and thus have no context. Misplaced priority or concern on nuanced aspects while completely disregarding key principles is another issue.

That being said, don’t take this personal, this isn’t an attack on anyone, I simply think if we going to have a dialogue that’s somewhat productive rather than just an echo chamber, it needs to start with an honest self assessment. The point of a this discussion (any really) isn’t to “win” the argument but leave with something of value.


So quick background, personal I have 19ish years of military service, mostly in special operations. Heavy focus on sniper stuff but I cut my teeth as rifleman and assaulter long before that. I currently work for Ridgeline, our primary clients consist of special operation units both US and Foreign as well as others better not mentioned. Our staff is small but robust and includes LE and Mil operators from near every service (sorry Air Force 🤣) as well as other organizations outside of DoD. One of our primary contracts is a Low-Visibly Operator Course focused on small team (1-4 PAX) SUT/CQB in and around vehicles and residential structures with pistol/sub/carbines from concealment.

Here’s the notes relevant to the original post some additional observations.

Pistol/Subguns - These suck at winning gunfights when it comes to putting metal on meat. Better that a sharp point stick but a rifle/carbine is a whole magnitude of ballistic effectiveness above a pistol cartridge even with a sub gun. While there are a plethora of circumstances that might allow you to come out on top with a pistol vs a rifle, you won’t always be able to control those BUT you can control what you start with and a rifle is a better option.

Also I’ve seen A LOT of people shoot pistols over the years and I probably can count on one hand the number of people that are good enough with a pistol for it to be an confidently welded as an effective primary.

And that’s one of the points of concern here that I keep seeing, that “pistols are for CQB”. No they are NOT a primary weapon system, they are a backup another platform or a compromise for situations such as environments that demand concealment. If you think that rolling single handed with a pistol, while carry a baby in the dead of night against unknown threats is a good idea, you’re fuck’en bananas. The priority is to win this fight so stack the deck in you favor.

Suppressors - John Lovell already it laid out. VIOLENCE OF ACTION. As a singleton or a small team the psychological factor of unsuppressed fire in the confines of CQC is significant. I see this every time we teach the LVOC. Everyone, even seasoned hitters tend to be like “Goddamn!” when we roll unsuppressed in vehicles or tight rooms. I want everyone involved to be second guessing their decisions, 10.3” has that effect. Obviously amplified hearing protection is a thing, so just do it.

Appreciate the insight from someone who knows much much more about this kind of stuff than I do and ever will.

A barking 10.3 would certainly get some attention :oops:
 
A carbine or shotgun with a red dot is obviously easier to hit with and has greater effect than a pistol and irons.

That said, different people have different skillsets. There is a lot more flexibility with a pistol in close quarters having a free hand available and the ability to tuck the pistol in very close. Even if terminal effectiveness is lessened, it has its place.

Easy to say it's stupid to gunfight with a kid in your arm, but if you are evacuating an infant or toddler, a screaming small child, disabled, elderly...

Different tools for different people.

Their house, their gunfight, their choice.

People need options.

I prefer a double bladed short handled battle axe myself.

One handed use and no hearing loss issues.
 
Personally I would be more worried about being targeted, for one reason or another. In a home invasion robbery, often these days it is 4-6 intruders and 60% may be wearing body armor. Therefore a pistol is a very poor option, and a rifle shooting the projectile at over 3,000 fpm would be best. A shotgun aimed at the head would also work well, but would be harder to hit a moving person than a body shot with a rifle.

For a home invasion situation, getting the family outside would be risky. Better to reinforce internal walls and have to layout work to your advantage. Ideally a two story house with vantage points from where you can cover the entire downstairs with your rifle.
 
A carbine or shotgun with a red dot is obviously easier to hit with and has greater effect than a pistol and irons.

That said, different people have different skillsets. There is a lot more flexibility with a pistol in close quarters having a free hand available and the ability to tuck the pistol in very close. Even if terminal effectiveness is lessened, it has its place.

Easy to say it's stupid to gunfight with a kid in your arm, but if you are evacuating an infant or toddler, a screaming small child, disabled, elderly...

Different tools for different people.

Their house, their gunfight, their choice.

People need options.

I prefer a double bladed short handled battle axe myself.

One handed use and no hearing loss issues.

Not sure about all that minus your house/life your call

I have taken a new shooter out, have some water jugs and other stuff the size at 25ish yards and better, I hand them a pistol and first off they look awkward with it with their handling, their hit rate is, well the water jug is at least fearing for its life

I hand them something with a stock and fore grip, most can smoke the jugs at 25hrs right off the bat

Holding a screaming kid, I mean I guess it’s a form of organic body armor 🤷‍♂️

For the layout of my place, I’d rather have my woman lock the door to the bedroom, with a narrow hallway leading to it, push the dresser against the door, cover/conceal behind the side of the bed with my M2 and smoke anything that tries to force that door

As many women, she goes and shoots with my on occasion, maybe shoots as many rounds in year as I do in a week, professionally she’s not in a high stress quick decision type field, I feel much better with her secure in a room with a funnel going to it and a “point and click” supported weapon
 
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A carbine or shotgun with a red dot is obviously easier to hit with and has greater effect than a pistol and irons.

That said, different people have different skillsets. There is a lot more flexibility with a pistol in close quarters having a free hand available and the ability to tuck the pistol in very close. Even if terminal effectiveness is lessened, it has its place.

Easy to say it's stupid to gunfight with a kid in your arm, but if you are evacuating an infant or toddler, a screaming small child, disabled, elderly...

Different tools for different people.

Their house, their gunfight, their choice.

People need options.

I prefer a double bladed short handled battle axe myself.

One handed use and no hearing loss issues.

How many gunfights you been in?
 
Personally I would be more worried about being targeted, for one reason or another. In a home invasion robbery, often these days it is 4-6 intruders and 60% may be wearing body armor. Therefore a pistol is a very poor option, and a rifle shooting the projectile at over 3,000 fpm would be best. A shotgun aimed at the head would also work well, but would be harder to hit a moving person than a body shot with a rifle.

For a home invasion situation, getting the family outside would be risky. Better to reinforce internal walls and have to layout work to your advantage. Ideally a two story house with vantage points from where you can cover the entire downstairs with your rifle.

You live in Iraq or Chicago?

In my area it’s rare, and when it happens it’s 50/50 if there is a weapon, it’s normally one idiot, maybe 2 and I have never heard of armor or training, most times the weapon is something they stole from a car and they probably couldn’t even clear a malfunction, still could get you killed just the same, but seal team 6 they are not, normally druggies and others who don’t make good decision and rely on people not putting up a fight or just not being home
 
Personally I would be more worried about being targeted, for one reason or another. In a home invasion robbery, often these days it is 4-6 intruders and 60% may be wearing body armor. Therefore a pistol is a very poor option, and a rifle shooting the projectile at over 3,000 fpm would be best. A shotgun aimed at the head would also work well, but would be harder to hit a moving person than a body shot with a rifle.

For a home invasion situation, getting the family outside would be risky. Better to reinforce internal walls and have to layout work to your advantage. Ideally a two story house with vantage points from where you can cover the entire downstairs with your rifle.
In King Phillips War…..1674-1675 time frame……..people fortified their houses by filling the voids between wall frame members with brick coursing at least to the level of a sleeping body in bed.

Silly fucking ancients.
 
You live in Iraq or Chicago?

In my area it’s rare, and when it happens it’s 50/50 if there is a weapon, it’s normally one idiot, maybe 2 and I have never heard of armor or training, most times the weapon is something they stole from a car and they probably couldn’t even clear a malfunction, still could get you killed just the same, but seal team 6 they are not, normally druggies and others who don’t make good decision and rely on people not putting up a fight or just not being home
This.
 
In King Phillips War…..1674-1675 time frame……..people fortified their houses by filling the voids between wall frame members with brick coursing at least to the level of a sleeping body in bed.

Silly fucking ancients.

Ahh the days when the peasants knew the government wasn’t going to save them like some perverse parent or god like figure
 

Most are druggies or have other demons

$700 in armor or $700 in crack isn’t even a decision

If they don’t do drugs, $700 in invest in your burglar career, going online to order, picking a address that you’ll still be at, waiting for it to get in, OR you could spend that money on a shitty neck tat and drinking that same night

If these people invested and planned they wouldnt be breaking into blue collar homes, the only way I could see one with armor for the most part is if they broke into a home and found some armor to steal, and even then it’s heavy and shit so I could see 50% chance it would more likely end up in a pawn shop or offer up than on the shitbird for his next break in
 
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Well in classic fashion we’ve descended into the realm of the less than qualified opinions 😅 look is a free country, do whatever you want but I’d urge us all to consider the aspects of the ego at play here.

Each fight that occurs is unique. No two gunfights are ever the same…BUT you will over time notice trends…BUT to truly understand and interpret, and integrate trends you need context. Context arrives from experience, experience can be personal which while powerful profound is often statistically limited. Other forms of experience come from the institutional or organizational perspective. This is the collective organization of the members individual experiences that will shape and develop a coherent doctrinal outline for the collective, the purpose of which is to enhance the groups abilities to succeed.

“Strength of the wolf is the pack, the strength of a pack is the wolf”

Some of you are probably wondering what the I am rambling on about. Let me say it simply:

Some of the things I am reading in this thread are fuck’en retarded. Comments that lack any grounded perspective other than it’s just been regurgitated over and over and thus have no context. Misplaced priority or concern on nuanced aspects while completely disregarding key principles is another issue.

That being said, don’t take this personal, this isn’t an attack on anyone, I simply think if we going to have a dialogue that’s somewhat productive rather than just an echo chamber, it needs to start with an honest self assessment. The point of a this discussion (any really) isn’t to “win” the argument but leave with something of value.


So quick background, personal I have 19ish years of military service, mostly in special operations. Heavy focus on sniper stuff but I cut my teeth as rifleman and assaulter long before that. I currently work for Ridgeline, our primary clients consist of special operation units both US and Foreign as well as others better not mentioned. Our staff is small but robust and includes LE and Mil operators from near every service (sorry Air Force 🤣) as well as other organizations outside of DoD. One of our primary contracts is a Low-Visibly Operator Course focused on small team (1-4 PAX) SUT/CQB in and around vehicles and residential structures with pistol/sub/carbines from concealment.

Here’s the notes relevant to the original post some additional observations.

Pistol/Subguns - These suck at winning gunfights when it comes to putting metal on meat. Better that a sharp point stick but a rifle/carbine is a whole magnitude of ballistic effectiveness above a pistol cartridge even with a sub gun. While there are a plethora of circumstances that might allow you to come out on top with a pistol vs a rifle, you won’t always be able to control those BUT you can control what you start with and a rifle is a better option.

Also I’ve seen A LOT of people shoot pistols over the years and I probably can count on one hand the number of people that are good enough with a pistol for it to be an confidently welded as an effective primary.

And that’s one of the points of concern here that I keep seeing, that “pistols are for CQB”. No they are NOT a primary weapon system, they are a backup another platform or a compromise for situations such as environments that demand concealment. If you think that rolling single handed with a pistol, while carry a baby in the dead of night against unknown threats is a good idea, you’re fuck’en bananas. The priority is to win this fight so stack the deck in you favor.

Suppressors - John Lovell already it laid out. VIOLENCE OF ACTION. As a singleton or a small team the psychological factor of unsuppressed fire in the confines of CQC is significant. I see this every time we teach the LVOC. Everyone, even seasoned hitters tend to be like “Goddamn!” when we roll unsuppressed in vehicles or tight rooms. I want everyone involved to be second guessing their decisions, 10.3” has that effect. Obviously amplified hearing protection is a thing, so just do it.
The whole violence of action comes from small team tactics and gorilla warfare where you try to seem as a bigger force than you really are.

I’ve been to the same places and done similar things as Lovell, and I personally and confidently disagree that it’s not necessary all the time to light up the whole house. It’s my house. Unless it’s the national guard or whole HRT serving a no knock warrant or something retarded, I’m seriously not concerned with some idiot who decides to throw his life away trying to break in or some shit.

-I/people don’t (always) live next to neighbors.
-Chances are if I’m getting in a gun fight it’s coming home or on the property. The point being, everyone’s circumstance is different.
-If you have kids, I don’t personally think one should just leave a rifle by the side of your bed. Leaving is the best option for most people.
-Ear pro/battle rattle right there at the side of the bed is retarded too.
-99.9% of the time in stable living, no one is trying to kill you in your house.

That leaves a small amount of sceneries derived from a home invasion by 3+ people where you want to equalize being outnumbered. Lovell teaches these courses and helps people make these home protection plans, so to blanket a counter attack plan, he suggest what he suggest. That’s fine. I just prefer not not to create a minute of chaos, blind myself and deafen myself. Especially since suppressors indoors are still loud. If it’s sooo serious I have to run my ass to my war room to kit up, I’m pulling goodies that will more than light up the house.


I’m not advocating complacency, but there has to be some level of realism. Living like you’re on call QRF, is not really sustainable long term, and this is still America for now.
 
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The whole violence of action comes from small team tactics and gorilla warfare where you try to seem as a bigger force than you really are.

I’ve been to the same places and done the same things as Lovell, and I personally and confidently disagree that it’s not necessary all the time to light up the whole house. It’s my house. Unless it’s the national guard or whole HRT serving a no knock warrant or something retarded, I’m seriously not concerned with some idiot who decides to throw his life away trying to break in or some shit.

-I/people don’t (always) live next to neighbors.
-Chances are if I’m getting in a gun fight it’s coming home or on the property. The point being, everyone’s circumstance is different.
-If you have kids, I don’t personally think one should just leave a rifle by the side of your bed. Leaving is the best option for most people.
-Ear pro/battle rattle right there at the side of the bed is retarded too.
-99.9% of the time in stable living, no one is trying to kill you in your house.

That leaves a small amount of sceneries derived from a home invasion by 3+ people where you want to equalize being outnumbered. Lovell teaches these courses and helps people make these home protection plans, so to blanket a counter attack plan, he suggest what he suggest. That’s fine. I just prefer not not to create a minute of chaos, blind myself and deafen myself. Especially since suppressors indoors are still loud. If it’s sooo serious I have to run my ass to my war room to kit up, I’m pulling goodies that will more than light up the house.


I’m not advocating complacency, but there has to be some level of realism. Living like you’re on call QRF, is not really sustainable long term, and this is still America for now.

So how do you know the guy who broke in is

A random crackhead who cant do a single push-up and is armed with a airsoft gun he stole from a little kid and is going to run the second a light get turned on or your dog farts

Vs

A ex army door kicker, now unemployed who got hooked on pills and ran just ran out and doesn’t much care if he lives or dies, much less you, and has a decent firearm

Yes home invasions are rare, that being said I almost was victim to one once, but so are home fires, however if someone breaks in I’d rather meet them with the best force I can and with full aggression, vs be like “oh snap, hang on a sec mr shitbird, got to go back to my closet real quick BRB”

Balance of resources, yeah one could go all linear and say well Mr Trout why not just have a fucking railgun and hurt locker type armor, yeah yeah

But seems like a good balance without living your life around it, and what I’m thinking I’m going to go with, a 9.5” barreled 9mm with 30rds of HSTs (no can) in my closet that’s 4’ from my bed, resting against that gun is my easy to put on electric muffs

So far seems like a good balance on a “violence of force” / accuracy / lethality / over penetration / maneuverability stand point

A few years back I actually had my vintage 30-30 carbine, didn’t really penetrate like a laser like 223/7.62, but inside of 200yrds damn that thing put some energy on target and the recoil was not bad, plus with the state I was in at the time the optics of “grandpas rifle” were sadly important, now it had issues like no light and follow up shots, even with soft tip 150gn, would never be as fast while being accurate when compared to a more modern semi

Considerations, with my location, the idea of letting loose a drywall freight train like a 223/7.62/300bo/458s in this stick built house, I just don’t have the political connections if one of those rounds ends up over penetrating into a unaffiliated person after a wall or two, even if I had the political connections, I would rather not live with that

When it comes to LE/Mil, who are a bad example due to the MAJOR legal protections they have for fuck ups, when are they using 9mm sub guns these days?
 
So how do you know the guy who broke in is

A random crackhead who cant do a single push-up and is armed with a airsoft gun he stole from a little kid and is going to run the second a light get turned on or your dog farts

Vs

A ex army door kicker, now unemployed who got hooked on pills and ran just ran out and doesn’t much care if he lives or dies, much less you, and has a decent firearm

Yes home invasions are rare, that being said I almost was victim to one once, but so are home fires, however if someone breaks in I’d rather meet them with the best force I can and with full aggression, vs be like “oh snap, hang on a sec mr shitbird, got to go back to my closet real quick BRB”

Balance of resources, yeah one could go all linear and say well Mr Trout why not just have a fucking railgun and hurt locker type armor, yeah yeah

But seems like a good balance without living your life around it, and what I’m thinking I’m going to go with, a 9.5” barreled 9mm with 30rds of HSTs (no can) in my closet that’s 4’ from my bed, resting against that gun is my easy to put on electric muffs

So far seems like a good balance on a “violence of force” / accuracy / lethality / over penetration / maneuverability stand point

A few years back I actually had my vintage 30-30 carbine, didn’t really penetrate like a laser like 223/7.62, but inside of 200yrds damn that thing put some energy on target and the recoil was not bad, plus with the state I was in at the time the optics of “grandpas rifle” were sadly important, now it had issues like no light and follow up shots, even with soft tip 150gn, would never be as fast while being accurate when compared to a more modern semi

Considerations, with my location, the idea of letting loose a drywall freight train like a 223/7.62/300bo/458s in this stick built house, I just don’t have the political connections if one of those rounds ends up over penetrating into a unaffiliated person after a wall or two, even if I had the political connections, I would rather not live with that

When it comes to LE/Mil, who are a bad example due to the MAJOR legal protections they have for fuck ups, when are they using 9mm sub guns these days?
You know who it is the same as if you light up the whole house the second something goes bump in the night. Best judgement is to be used. Know the laws. In these stupid hypotheticals, it’s assumed that whoever it is, clearly isn’t suppose to be there. In real life, you only know when you go to meet them. Which, again, is why evacuating is the BEST course of action.

Yes fires are rare. So most people don’t have 30 fire extinguishers, the firehose on and on standby. They have a fire alarm and common sense. Maybe a carbon monoxide sensor.

The problem with pistol rounds are their inability to damage tissue fast enough, or more accurately, relative to a rifle. There use to be a saying, zip em up, zip em down. Basically you keep shooting a fool till he falls over and is dead. You want the “threat” to cease activity immediately. You run a risk even more so with a pcc than with a rifle, while still having the same penetration problems in walls. I mean, I probably don't have to tell you what ammo options are available in rifles that are comparable.

Most aren’t using 9mm subs these days. For reasons I’ve mentioned. I can really only speak for the mil side, and the sub machine guns as a whole fill a niche roll. Usually vbss, PSD and other things of such. There’s enough tiny rifles that can fill the same role usually.
 
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You know who it is the same as if you light up the whole house the second something goes bump in the night. Best judgement is to be used. Know the laws. In these stupid hypotheticals, it’s assumed that whoever it is, clearly isn’t suppose to be there. In real life, you only know when you go to meet them. Which, again, is why evacuating is the BEST course of action.

Yes fires are rare. So most people don’t have 30 fire extinguishers, the firehose on and on standby. They have a fire alarm and common sense. Maybe a carbon monoxide sensor.

The problem with pistol rounds are their inability to damage tissue fast enough, or more accurately, relative to a rifle. There use to be a saying, zip em up, zip em down. Basically you keep shooting a fool till he falls over and is dead. You want the “threat” to cease activity immediately. You run a risk even more so with a pcc than with a rifle, while still having the same penetration problems in walls. I mean, I probably don't have to tell you what ammo options are available in rifles that are comparable.

Most aren’t using 9mm subs these days. For reasons I’ve mentioned. I can really only speak for the mil side, and the sub machine guns as a whole fill a niche roll. Usually vbss, PSD and other things of such. There’s enough tiny rifles that can fill the same role usually.

I hear ya, but lots of videos like this too that speak for 9mm, and this was just a pistol


Any good links to drywall/window penetration comparisons
 
For the sake of this conversation:

- who is mostly likely to break into your home?
- what is their skillet?
- what are they likely to be armed with?
- when engaged, are they likely to fight back? Will they flee?

I feel like this conversation needs to be framed up with more info and context. I don't personally know the data and stats for the above questions.

I imagine engaging the average thief versus engaging a team of armed combatants that have some experience and competency in CQB is very, very different. I also imagine the odds of encountering one is much, much higher than the other. But if you do encounter the other, heaven forbid...
 
How many gunfights you been in?
ZERO. My opinion is just another one on the internet.

Anyone should feel free to upload their resume of training, experience, and list of confirmed kills to prove how much more credibility their internet posts have over mine. I'll concede that having shot another person means they're better qualified to answer questions on the topic of shooting people.

I share my opinions freely.

You get what you pay for.

In my zero gunfight experience, people should use the firearm they are most comfortable with. I can argue advantages to a carbine > shotgun, etc. but ultimately how proficient the person is with firearms and their specific circumstances and choice of weapon is a personal decision based on information I don't have.

Different people are in different settings, different situations, and need different tools to adapt to what is best for them and their circumstances. That is all I am saying.

In case it wasn't clear, the battle axe comment was made in jest.
 
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For everybody reading this thread, If you don't know, Turbo Turd here is anti-military and anti-law enforcement. And I'm not just saying that because of the specific parts of his last post that I quoted above although they serve as examples to what his base thought process is. He has stated it straight up numerous times. He thinks our servicemen and service women are bootlickers to an illegitimate government. His words.

@Rudy Gonsior The days of giving out advice or a perspective that comes from military service that may or may not contain TT&Ps are quickly coming to a close on the internet, my friend. Not only would I not be giving out free advice to shit heads like this, in general a guy has to be a lot more careful by the things he says.

Now, back to quoting Massad Ayoob, YouTube videos, and in general just making dumb shit up. LULZ

You support law enforcement (FBI ATF PD) post covid, summer of love, and the all the other overreaches?

You think all mil are white knights??

As the big guy said, c’mon man!

Now not all LE are bad guys, but I just am as suspicious of them as they are of me on first contact

Seems you don’t want Americans sharing knowledge and free speech, gov types need to stick together and not talk to “peasants” eh? You sound like a leftist, all hail big gov eh?

This topic doesn’t have shit to do with any of this however, didn’t mean to “trigger you”
 
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ZERO. My opinion is just another one on the internet.

Anyone should feel free to upload their resume of training, experience, and list of confirmed kills to prove how much more credibility their internet posts have over mine. I'll concede that having shot another person means they're better qualified to answer questions on the topic of shooting people.

I share my opinions freely.

You get what you pay for.

In my zero gunfight experience, people should use the firearm they are most comfortable with. I can argue advantages to a carbine > shotgun, etc. but ultimately how proficient the person is with firearms is a personal decision based on information I don't have.

Different people are in different settings, different situations, and need different tools to adapt to what is best for them and their circumstances. That is all I am saying.

In case it wasn't clear, the battle axe comment was made in jest.

I agree, the “argument from authority” is laughable, it’s cool to hear from people who did CQB for a paycheck, but I’m also just as interested in those fighting a stopwatch in competition, or successful logical and analytical minded peeps

When I hear “how many gun fights have you been in”, it reminds me of all the fuck ups I’ve had work for me where I pointed their fuck ups out and all I got was “son I have been doing this for XX years” and I’m just like “well god bless America where our economy is soo great you can suck that bad for so long and still make a living”

Good ideas and logic normally speak for themself, as do head to head comparisons and other clearly quantifiable comparisons

Folks like Rudy I would like to hear more from, sadly folks like rebunski are shitting on this site by trying to limit the amount of useful content we have on here with his sad “us vs them” BS
 
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@TurboTrout

It appears to my reading you’re leaning away from a suppressor. What are your personal reasons against one in your context?

Obviously I see zero downsides to them besides added length/weight.
 
@TurboTrout

It appears to my reading you’re leaning away from a suppressor. What are your personal reasons against one in your context?

Obviously I see zero downsides to them besides added length/weight.

Weight and length obviously factor, also if I grab my MSAs my hearing is boosted, and when I shoot my hearing is still fine but I’m going to rock the ears of said bad guy?

I’d like to say I’ll never miss, but anyone who is a realist knows shit happens, the stun factor of a braked 9mm might just give me enough time for a second shot if needed, plus if he has a friend, based on tons of CCTV on YouTube of bad guys, good chance his friends will be elbows and assholes once they hear that thing let loose

At least that is my running theory, the YouTuber ex mil guy seemed to agree, which is a YouTuber so 🤷‍♂️ But seems a regular here who runs training programs seems to agree

Again I’m still open to quantified pro V. con on this subject

The biggest drawback I have seen is forgetting my ear pro that’s leaning against the gun, and also possible hearing damage to family, but if they are a few rooms away with the door closed, it’ll be loud but I don’t think damaging, but will also be loud enough the neighbors would be alerted, which would be good
 
I have minimal cqb training (definitely no where near the level of some in here) . All I know well is good luck guessing how a home invasion is going to play out, you can't. If I lived in a area with more organized crime my personal choices might be different. I want the most flexability, a pistol affords me that and the likelihood of more than 2-3 are slim (in my current area) and the odds are even slimmer they are sticking around when the first few rounds head their way. I don't want to have to choose between doing something with 1 hand/arm and not being able to fire my weapon well or at all pending on the situation if I had a rifle.

The kid was one possible example of a ton of other reasons you may need an arm or hand free and still be able to dependably utilize a firearm.

My first goal is getting my wife and kid safe. How that's done entirely depends on the actual situation. Knowing how to approach doors, hallways, open areas, etc And knowing how to use your firearm well is going to do more good for the majority of people than just comparing penetrating ability of a 9mm vs 556.
 
I have minimal cqb training (definitely no where near the level of some in here) . All I know well is good luck guessing how a home invasion is going to play out, you can't. If I lived in a area with more organized crime my personal choices might be different. I want the most flexability, a pistol affords me that and the likelihood of more than 2-3 are slim (in my current area) and the odds are even slimmer they are sticking around when the first few rounds head their way. I don't want to have to choose between doing something with 1 hand/arm and not being able to fire my weapon well or at all pending on the situation if I had a rifle.

The kid was one possible example of a ton of other reasons you may need an arm or hand free and still be able to dependably utilize a firearm.

My first goal is getting my wife and kid safe. How that's done entirely depends on the actual situation. Knowing how to approach doors, hallways, open areas, etc And knowing how to use your firearm well is going to do more good for the majority of people than just comparing penetrating ability of a 9mm vs 556.

I agree, but I also agree that having a screaming kid in your one arm and a pistol in the other arm with shitbirds abound is asking for the kid to act as a meaty ballistic/stab plate if the bad guys do want to get frisky

I think I’m better than ok with a pistol, but even imagining carrying my 40lb dog with one arm with him barking, trying to put rounds on target with my pistol, outside of the target close enough to stab, fuck that


With a small MP/SP5/9-10” barrel 9mm sized weapon, taking a hand free to open a door isn’t that big of a deal, I mean this ain’t exactly Mr Universe physique and he could do it

Elian-Gonzalez-held-by-Do-001.jpg
 
Weight and length obviously factor, also if I grab my MSAs my hearing is boosted, and when I shoot my hearing is still fine but I’m going to rock the ears of said bad guy?

I’d like to say I’ll never miss, but anyone who is a realist knows shit happens, the stun factor of a braked 9mm might just give me enough time for a second shot if needed, plus if he has a friend, based on tons of CCTV on YouTube of bad guys, good chance his friends will be elbows and assholes once they hear that thing let loose

At least that is my running theory, the YouTuber ex mil guy seemed to agree, which is a YouTuber so 🤷‍♂️ But seems a regular here who runs training programs seems to agree

Again I’m still open to quantified pro V. con on this subject

The biggest drawback I have seen is forgetting my ear pro that’s leaning against the gun, and also possible hearing damage to family, but if they are a few rooms away with the door closed, it’ll be loud but I don’t think damaging, but will also be loud enough the neighbors would be alerted, which would be good
Some valid points. I’ll still point back to the concussion around the shooter during fire. I’d at least put of something that directed the blast downrange, like the Surefire or new Huxwrx units.
 
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Some valid points. I’ll still point back to the concussion around the shooter during fire. I’d at least put of something that directed the blast downrange, like the Surefire or new Huxwrx units.

Rgr that, you have a link to what you’re talking about, that seems to make sense

This?

Are there any draw backs to those muzzle devices?
 
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Think this is the surefire one


Not seeing anything for 9mm


Seems lots of other companies have some for 9mm, be nice to see some tests on how much they do, kinda smells a little like snake oil?

 
Not sure this device will do much for the sound. Concussion mitigation only.

Just remember that with suppressors on semis, the ejection port is open. You want to know how the can meters at the shooter's ear.
 
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Think this is the surefire one


Not seeing anything for 9mm


Seems lots of other companies have some for 9mm, be nice to see some tests on how much they do, kinda smells a little like snake oil?

Griffin Armament did some tests a few years ago. Sound meter and all.
 
@TurboTrout

Yeah those are what I was talking about. Sound will be a factor still, but concussion should be a bit less. Obviously consult www.pewscience.com for actual suppression ratings on various 9mm cans.

This is assuming you’re quick enough to don earpro. My house is not big enough between an alert of threat and my bedroom to grab earpro and rifle. A suppressed rifle is beside me though.
 
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Im not sure id over think it too much, personally i would use whatever i had the most time behind.
 
geez, none of you did an office pop?
it isn't that bad. :p

besides, do you all carry a portable lightning rod, in case you might get struck by lightning?

/of course, some people might be more or less likely to experience such situations.
//any of the above snarkiness is not directed at meth dealers or people investigating child sex trafficking.
 
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@TurboTrout

Yeah those are what I was talking about. Sound will be a factor still, but concussion should be a bit less. Obviously consult www.pewscience.com for actual suppression ratings on various 9mm cans.

This is assuming you’re quick enough to don earpro. My house is not big enough between an alert of threat and my bedroom to grab earpro and rifle. A suppressed rifle is beside me though.

Maybe I’ll load a snap cap and set up my timer and play some drills ear pro and sans ear pro 🤔
 
I agree, but I also agree that having a screaming kid in your one arm and a pistol in the other arm with shitbirds abound is asking for the kid to act as a meaty ballistic/stab plate if the bad guys do want to get frisky

I don't completely disagree. Bottom line is you are in a shitty situation all around. Nothing is ideal. The kid was one of many different things I could think of needing an arm for and as you mentioned is far from an ideal situation but who the hell knows what may be needed.

But I'm done here. Going to be a lot of different thoughts on this.
 
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For everybody reading this thread, If you don't know, Turbo Turd here is anti-military and anti-law enforcement. And I'm not just saying that because of the specific parts of his last post that I quoted above although they serve as examples to what his base thought process is. He has stated it straight up numerous times. He thinks our servicemen and service women are bootlickers to an illegitimate government. His words.

@Rudy Gonsior The days of giving out advice or a perspective that comes from military service that may or may not contain TT&Ps are quickly coming to a close on the internet, my friend. Not only would I not be giving out free advice to shit heads like this, in general a guy has to be a lot more careful by the things he says.

Now, back to quoting Massad Ayoob, YouTube videos, and in general just making dumb shit up. LULZ
Lol, you’re not wrong but sometimes I have Sunday mornings off and am tempted by the idea of resurrecting the ideals of American Rifleman into some beyond…what ever the fuck this is.

I usually come to my senses around lunch time. 😅 But I think there are good men to be found yet in this world, though certainly this sub-culture tends to draw a strange form of the malnourished masculine in heavy concentrations. To navigate this community even with best intentions is not without its perils.
 
Think this is the surefire one


Not seeing anything for 9mm


Seems lots of other companies have some for 9mm, be nice to see some tests on how much they do, kinda smells a little like snake oil?

Idk about 9mm but the 556 ones work well for indoor ranges. Noticeable difference shooting next to someone especially on shortys
 
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Yes they do.
 
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Yes they do.

Simple device, but $35, I’ll give her a go
 
If they get through the moat and the hungry alligators, make it past the Tesla coil, find the actual entrance to my living quarters, then I’ll consider it their lucky day and let them off with a throat punch and a sprained neck.
Other notable tools that work well are 6” blade, machete (not a dull one like in Central America), tomahawk, nightstick, garrote, none of which make too much noise, provided you can handle the sound of cells dying in the darkness of night.

Shit if it was legal I’d take home invaders back straps and set them free to tell their “homies”
 
For everybody reading this thread, If you don't know, Turbo Turd here is anti-military and anti-law enforcement. And I'm not just saying that because of the specific parts of his last post that I quoted above although they serve as examples to what his base thought process is. He has stated it straight up numerous times. He thinks our servicemen and service women are bootlickers to an illegitimate government. His words.
You think Biden is a constitutionally elected and a legal commander and chief?:ROFLMAO: It’s hard to believe more people aren’t critical of oath takers that turn the other cheek and obey illegal orders from this man or cooperate with his weaponized DOJ. @TurboTrout isn’t as crazy as you seem to believe. Let’s save this for the pit where it belongs. Start a thread and we can discuss further.

@TurboTrout, hearing protection of some sort is best but the last thing that matters when a man breaks into your house to rape your wife and kill your kids. I’m assuming anyone that breaks into my home on their own accord or sent by the state is there to do these things.

I have shot a 16” sks out the passenger side window of my truck while sitting in the driver’s seat. Can’t hardly get much more confined than that with the muzzle in the truck. I didn’t put on my earpro before saueezing the trigger. Did it suck? Yep. Did I suffer damage? Probably, but I can still pass a hearing test 20 years later.