Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action

#11,154
RAVAGE88 said:
Yo Dude, great question and this is a topic I now have no issue speaking to openly. But first, I'll issue an apology (@grauhanen and others) to those that really wanted me to discuss data, and I refused as it was during the "course of battle," so to speak.

So, I'll start by saying, the fast twist project, in total, was never about just the barrels. The project in total was about the overall system, which is what the V-22 platform was designed to be. The V-22 was never just the action (@David Lott and @jelrod1 get this).

When faster twist rates came up in the beginning, Bryan Litz and I discussed it while at an event in TX. As you can imagine, it was a great conversation and Bryan said, as he always has, a number of things I was intrigued by. The majority of it I agreed with and some of it I didn't. But, anyway, the path started. Unfortunately, a parallel path started by the sales guy in St. George, one thing led to another, and they built a couple rifles using Bartlein blanks, but they had no idea what the math said and no way to even do the math. The rifles were typical 18", threaded muzzle builds and of course, they shot horribly. So, there was an immediate turn off in St. George with no ability to envision what it meant to seize an incredible opportunity.

However, I stayed on the path, developed initial data and built a rifle in my lab with a nine twist, 22" finished length with a non-threaded muzzle. Aside from the nine twist, I also had blanks made at twist rates between nine and 16, all Ace blanks. Not that it's an Ace vs Bartlein debate, as the brand isn't relevant, but I could get the Ace blanks pretty quickly and personally, it was my favorite of the blanks we were using at the time.

Anyway, my initial thoughts on the nine twist performance using the parameters that the math said should be optimal; I was highly pleased. So, I took rifles down to another NRA World Championship and the nine twist was one of them. I told no one that there were prototype parts in the nine twist gun (more than just the barrel and I said nothing about the faster twist rate), including Paul. However, I sat behind a spotting scope over the course of the entire event (I wouldn't let anyone else sit behind the scope) and called impacts on target at 200 yards and beyond and plotted data between the nine twist gun and 16 twist guns. The collective group sizes were starkly different over the course of more than 5000 rounds down range.

Following that event, I handed the rifle to Daniel Horner and he used it in classes to further the collection of data. His findings agreed with mine. However, I noted some interesting characteristics....the greater variable was a combination of ambient temperature and increased angular velocity of the projectile (remember, the projectile hardness is pretty low on the BHN scale). But, this variation validated the need for system focus, not a barrel focus. And just so everyone understands, the characteristics I noted were weird deviations in group size at distance, but based on noting conditions, one could easily detect repeatability. Perfect!

So, now, next steps were planned to focus on measures that would bring the entirety of the system into alignment, which Paul had no capacity to understand and its why I started sharing with the community. As far as Paul was concerned, the project was a failure after the wrong length barrels with threaded muzzles (I think most know how I feel about threaded muzzles on a 22LR using a 1/2-28 thread) were used.

Anyway, I made a trip down to a test range to gather more data, mostly to compare TOF between the nine twist and other twist rates. Two guys from Lothar Walther met me there, as they were part of the plan and brought rifles with them with 12 twist barrels. And, Ivan Wells met me there, as this project had Custom Shop all over it (I still have the pictures of the shooting somewhere.). We did a TOF comparison using nine, 12 and 16 twist barrels and, from a system focus perspective, the nine twist was far more promising as it related to truly advancing what it meant to shoot 22LR. The 12 twist was marginally better than 16, as was the 13 I tested prior. Using a 12, 13 etc., is nothing more than maintaining status quo and accepting things related to construed conventional wisdom.

But, based on what my highly calibrated crystal ball was saying, I started clamming up and further disengaging from a group that had obviously forgotten who and what we said we were. In the beginning, it was "Envision And Create The Exceptional," but what it turned into was a real drag and it was obvious to this community.

I'll close with this. In thinking about all this stuff, I'm not sour or angry. Instead, I'm thankful and at peace that things happened to me and for me that separated me from what was dangerous and unhealthy. What was meant to be, will be.

I hope this answers your questions and clears up any confusion.

MB
Click to expand...
"Dear Lord, please let sparkly Mr. Ravage88 resurrect Vudoo and continue to bring the fastest twist 22lr to fruition. Alen."

-Me, praying at night...probably
 
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#11,155
JaoeyP said:
"Dear Lord, please let sparkly Mr. Ravage88 resurrect Vudoo and continue to bring the fastest twist 22lr to fruition. Alen."

-Me, praying at night...probably
Click to expand...
I do hope he gets back into the game. I’d love to see what the next version of the best of the rimfire action would look and function like. Whether it be on a 40X derivative like the Vudoo or a complete new redesign.
 
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#11,166
F4 plt said:
Since I have both the single shot and the magizine fed rifles I probably should look into spare parts and special tools to keep them running . Thanks again Mike for sharing with us
My single shot is left bolt right e xtraction/ loading port. The magizine fed is left bolt left extraction / loading port
Click to expand...
Interesting. Your post could of been exactly something I would have posted in regard to my 2 rifles and wishing for extra small parts. 😄
 
#11,167
pballkm21 said:
When did the shop stop putting Patent Pending on the actions? I have one from late 2021 with this, and then another from 2023 without patent pending. Curious if there are any differences I wouldn't be aware of...
Click to expand...
Patent pending should have ceased shortly into the Gen 2 production. I’d have to look at specifically when that was, but the only receivers manufactured to either of the two issued patents were all of Gen 1 and not many of the Gen 2.

MB
 
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#11,168
Tokay444 said:
Are you saying none were ever sold, and that’s why Kelbly’s uses the name now?
Click to expand...
No sir, I made no statements about it. I asked you, “how many would you say sold with the Vudoo name” and you answered, “just the ones that said Prometheus."

MB
 
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#11,169
Hgrubbs22 said:
I think it has been determined that diamonds are not so rare after all. And neither are people who exhibit integrity, intelligence, and service. It’s just that they don’t make public declarations about it. What you do hear all the time are the unintelligent, dishonest, takers trying to convince everyone else that they aren’t.
Click to expand...
And many of them end up like Dr. Elion: sitting alone in back of the room while unintelligent, dishonest takers with a propensity for social manipulation profit from her work and throw her colleagues out the door while proclaiming how they're making everything wonderful.
 
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#11,171
carbonbased said:
What’s DEFTI? My google-fu is weak here.
Click to expand...
www.snipershide.com

Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action

If Vudoo wasn’t making actions in house then I don’t see this whole closing thing a big deal. Move to OK, farm out actions like has been being done, send them to impact precision or CRB for barrel work. Call Foundation for a stock and your back in business lol. Seriously what were they...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
#11,172
RAVAGE88 said:
Yo Dude, great question and this is a topic I now have no issue speaking to openly. But first, I'll issue an apology (@grauhanen and others) to those that really wanted me to discuss data, and I refused as it was during the "course of battle," so to speak.

So, I'll start by saying, the fast twist project, in total, was never about just the barrels. The project in total was about the overall system, which is what the V-22 platform was designed to be. The V-22 was never just the action (@David Lott and @jelrod1 get this).

When faster twist rates came up in the beginning, Bryan Litz and I discussed it while at an event in TX. As you can imagine, it was a great conversation and Bryan said, as he always has, a number of things I was intrigued by. The majority of it I agreed with and some of it I didn't. But, anyway, the path started. Unfortunately, a parallel path started by the sales guy in St. George, one thing led to another, and they built a couple rifles using Bartlein blanks, but they had no idea what the math said and no way to even do the math. The rifles were typical 18", threaded muzzle builds and of course, they shot horribly. So, there was an immediate turn off in St. George with no ability to envision what it meant to seize an incredible opportunity.

However, I stayed on the path, developed initial data and built a rifle in my lab with a nine twist, 22" finished length with a non-threaded muzzle. Aside from the nine twist, I also had blanks made at twist rates between nine and 16, all Ace blanks. Not that it's an Ace vs Bartlein debate, as the brand isn't relevant, but I could get the Ace blanks pretty quickly and personally, it was my favorite of the blanks we were using at the time.

Anyway, my initial thoughts on the nine twist performance using the parameters that the math said should be optimal; I was highly pleased. So, I took rifles down to another NRA World Championship and the nine twist was one of them. I told no one that there were prototype parts in the nine twist gun (more than just the barrel and I said nothing about the faster twist rate), including Paul. However, I sat behind a spotting scope over the course of the entire event (I wouldn't let anyone else sit behind the scope) and called impacts on target at 200 yards and beyond and plotted data between the nine twist gun and 16 twist guns. The collective group sizes were starkly different over the course of more than 5000 rounds down range.

Following that event, I handed the rifle to Daniel Horner and he used it in classes to further the collection of data. His findings agreed with mine. However, I noted some interesting characteristics....the greater variable was a combination of ambient temperature and increased angular velocity of the projectile (remember, the projectile hardness is pretty low on the BHN scale). But, this variation validated the need for system focus, not a barrel focus. And just so everyone understands, the characteristics I noted were weird deviations in group size at distance, but based on noting conditions, one could easily detect repeatability. Perfect!

So, now, next steps were planned to focus on measures that would bring the entirety of the system into alignment, which Paul had no capacity to understand and its why I started sharing with the community. As far as Paul was concerned, the project was a failure after the wrong length barrels with threaded muzzles (I think most know how I feel about threaded muzzles on a 22LR using a 1/2-28 thread) were used.

Anyway, I made a trip down to a test range to gather more data, mostly to compare TOF between the nine twist and other twist rates. Two guys from Lothar Walther met me there, as they were part of the plan and brought rifles with them with 12 twist barrels. And, Ivan Wells met me there, as this project had Custom Shop all over it (I still have the pictures of the shooting somewhere.). We did a TOF comparison using nine, 12 and 16 twist barrels and, from a system focus perspective, the nine twist was far more promising as it related to truly advancing what it meant to shoot 22LR. The 12 twist was marginally better than 16, as was the 13 I tested prior. Using a 12, 13 etc., is nothing more than maintaining status quo and accepting things related to construed conventional wisdom.

But, based on what my highly calibrated crystal ball was saying, I started clamming up and further disengaging from a group that had obviously forgotten who and what we said we were. In the beginning, it was "Envision And Create The Exceptional," but what it turned into was a real drag and it was obvious to this community.

I'll close with this. In thinking about all this stuff, I'm not sour or angry. Instead, I'm thankful and at peace that things happened to me and for me that separated me from what was dangerous and unhealthy. What was meant to be, will be.

I hope this answers your questions and clears up any confusion.

MB
Click to expand...
Thank you for coming back around to share some of this with us,
Like many I have been hoping that this subject would come back into the light.
 
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#11,175
RAVAGE88 said:
I wanted to come back to clean this up a little. I woke up thinking about it and I don't like how I likely came across to @Tokay444 . My point was, as well designed as the Prometheus is, it was never a Vudoo action; it will always be an ARC action regardless of what any other company white labels it as. My whole point by asking, "how many might you think Vudoo sold," was to shed light on what the community came to expect from Vudoo and it's one of the prime reasons there's a struggle to understand the pistol venture.

My apologies to @Tokay444 if I came across sharply on my response, it wasn't intended that way.

MB
Click to expand...
I’m somewhat vested in the 2011 market as well, and I know people love their Vudoos. I’d consider one now they’re offering DLC and not just Cerakote.
 
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#11,179
wraithdu said:
This is probably the wrong place to ask, but people mentioned serial numbers earlier... I've acquired 2 Vudoo 360s in the last 6 months, one from DI and one from Europtic. They are both serialized

VGWTxxxx

Is there any significance to the T lettering?
Click to expand...
Doubt it. My factory barreled action purchased from Altus in June 2024 has VGWT47xx.
 
#11,182
wraithdu said:
This is probably the wrong place to ask, but people mentioned serial numbers earlier... I've acquired 2 Vudoo 360s in the last 6 months, one from DI and one from Europtic. They are both serialized

VGWTxxxx

Is there any significance to the T lettering?
Click to expand...
T means 360.
 
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#11,183
wraithdu said:
This is probably the wrong place to ask, but people mentioned serial numbers earlier... I've acquired 2 Vudoo 360s in the last 6 months, one from DI and one from Europtic. They are both serialized

VGWTxxxx

Is there any significance to the T lettering?
Click to expand...
Sheesh I don't know where my head's been at this week... Ok one of the actions is serialized like that. The other one from DI is very different:

V-00xxxT
 
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#11,192
StrayDog said:
Would love to find an original V22 with melonited action and 18" kukri for my son, but I think they all became ceracoted after Gen1?
Click to expand...
Basically, yes. There was too much fallout from the finish house that did the Melonite with an inability to accept responsibility for sub-par work, so there was some moving around within alternatives. Plus, the shipping to/from the finish house added time to completion time and added considerable expense. (@Rob01, not bad for a guy that was supposedly not ever part of the day-to-day).

Anyway, the only way to manage the finish process was to bring Cerakote in-house. The Cerakote guy (Troy) was incredibly talented and did a great job. However, Cerakote never should've been the be all, end all solution, as the process is very cumbersome and the touch time is significant.

MB
 
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#11,195
RAVAGE88 said:
Patent pending should have ceased shortly into the Gen 2 production. I’d have to look at specifically when that was, but the only receivers manufactured to either of the two issued patents were all of Gen 1 and not many of the Gen 2.

MB
Click to expand...
I have a Gen 1 with no patent pending on it #22xx I purchased September of 2019 did the later Gen 1 not have patent pending ?
 
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#11,199
Redfisher60 said:
So my first Vudoo is 26xx, would that be considered gen 1.2? My second one I purchased right before the 360 was announced.
Click to expand...
I've been getting this question a lot via PM, so I'll go around the block to get across the street on this one, so bear with me.

The Gen 1 receiver was a two-piece receiver that used an insert to negate the lug ways forward of the mid lock abutments; a feature that I never liked about the 40X. In the Gen 1, and based on the first patent, the abutments were machined into the receiver body and the insert went in from the front to make up the secondary bore that supported the bolt nose.

The early Gen 2 production was also a two-piece receiver, but based on the second issued patent, the abutments were a machined feature of the insert, not the receiver body. So, there's a reason the Gen 1 and early Gen 2 actions felt better, although "feel" is subjective, so some, as in very few, like to argue about this.

So now, Gen 1.2....During Gen 1, the Remington style cocking piece was used (remember, I designed what became to be the V-22 to be the re-introduction of the Remington 40X Rimfire, but as a repeater). This cocking piece was sourced by Vudoo and the dimensional quality was all over the map. As it was, I didn't like the design because of the 60 degree engagement between the cocking surface on the cocking piece and sear surface in the triggers. The sear pressure, coupled with the 60 degree angles moved the rear of the bolt off-axis which reduced lug contact on what was the top lug with bolt closed. Not ideal.

So, these two conditions together is what fed the need to re-design the fire control system, which initially had the same 60 degree surfaces in play, but the new cocking piece was far easier to machine and do so repeatably. The goals going forward were to completely eliminate the 60 degree surfaces, which was a large coordinated effort between Vudoo (as in me) and the trigger makers. I went to Timney and came away with a prototype trigger with a vertical sear and made a vertical sear cocking piece (it's the trigger that still lives in my first nine twist build). I also worked with Flavio Fare in Italy (actually, with his son, Fabio) and made some vertical sear triggers that were out-of-this-world. I still have one of those triggers in my Three60.

Anyway, changing the course of what was a design deficiency (that originated in the late 50's) was a difficult task of wading through molasses, as status quo was so much easier....possibly a story for another time.

That's the history, now to answer your question. The easiest way to discern Gen 1 vs Gen 1.2 fire control systems is to simply look at the cocking piece in your known-to-be Gen 1 build. If the visible diameter of the cocking piece is roughly .375" diameter protruding through an open bolt shroud, that's a Gen 1 fire control. If the visible diameter is roughly .125" (it's actually slightly larger, but I can't remember the actual diameter) and there's a small hole perpendicular to the longitudinal axis, protruding from a closed bolt shroud, that's the Gen 1.2 fire control in a known-to-be Gen 1 build.

Hope this helps,
MB
 
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#11,200
Can anyone confirm the overall dimension of a factory Vudoo mag? Is it similar to the below?
Not interchanging mags, just checking barricade stop length.
IMG_1525.jpeg
 
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