Night Vision FLIR T70 & T75 specs

[Nukes]

For units that are grossly dissimilar in appearance, I am perplexed at their identical specs on the product brochures:

T70 & T75 - FLIR® Detection & Protection - Full Spectrum Technologies for Homeland Security & Force Protection

Are the brochures in error?

Can anyone comment on street pricing? differences from the T60 (other than periscope/non-periscope format)? opinions? comments?

 

[SkyPup]

I have a T-50 and T-60 and I tried out the T-70 at the FLIR Government booth at the 2013 Shot Show with "WiseGuy", it was pretty slick and easy to use, but looked like a pure military unit, it is 640 core but only looked like a 35mm lens.

I was told the T-70 would be available for civilian sale later on this summer about the same time as the new upgraded T-50 to T-65 with the 640 core is released.

Here is a video that WiseGuy did at the show on the T-70:

WISE GUY T70 final 011113DN01 on Vimeo

I have no experience with the T-75 at all...

 

[Nukes]

Thanks. Were any price points mentioned?

 

[SkyPup]

Thanks. Were any price points mentioned?

Not really that I could speak of, but the T-70 sounded like it would be a steal for the price mentioned....

 

[Nukes]

What price was mentioned?

 

[SkyPup]

What price was mentioned?

Not at liberty to give that out but it was approx. 1/2 the cost of my T-60 if that gives you some indication.....

 

[TestnDoc]

Not at liberty to give that out but it was approx. 1/2 the cost of my T-60 if that gives you some indication.....

Wow, that would be a heck of a deal if true. I'm in if it is at that price point. Love the T60, but the 70 might even be better, and who knows about the 75...

 

[Nukes]

Yes, and more useful than the new [estimated] $6,000 S&B!

 

[SkyPup]

The T-75 is the same T-70 instrument with a larger objective lens on it.

The T-70 can handle up to a 6X magnified optic behind it and the T-75 can take up to a 12X optic.

 

[Nukes]

Thanks for those specs and let us hope for the right price!

 

[discojon75]

What's the timeline on availability? I'm trying to decide what thermal to buy this fall.

 

[SkyPup]

Here is the info I received from FLIR Government Systems this morning:

"We are now able to start taking orders for the T70. The lead time is 120 days. The T65 should come out in fourth quarter of this year just in time for Christmas gifts!"

 

[SkyPup]

FLIR's Guy Blocker Goodness....

T-50 & T-65:

http://vimeo.com/60020821

T-70:

http://vimeo.com/57558396

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Here is the info I received from FLIR Government Systems this morning:

"We are now able to start taking orders for the T70. The lead time is 120 days. The T65 should come out in fourth quarter of this year just in time for Christmas gifts!"

We will have our T-70's is approx. 80 days or so. We are taking pre-orders on this. PM us for Hide pricing. MAP is $14,900 for the T-70's. Will have the MAP pricing on the 65's shortly.

 

[SkyPup]

Tag for more info and review of this excellent equipment.

 

[SkyPup]

I've got my sights set on a T-70, so will do a review when I get it mounted....

 

[Nukes]

For units that are grossly dissimilar in appearance, I am perplexed at their identical specs on the product brochures:

T70 & T75 - FLIR® Detection & Protection - Full Spectrum Technologies for Homeland Security & Force Protection

Are the brochures in error?

Can anyone comment on street pricing? differences from the T60 (other than periscope/non-periscope format)? opinions? comments?

I am still perplexed by the grossly dissimilar appearances of the T70 and T75, but similar spec sheets. For the time being I suspect it is a company error.

 

[SkyPup]

T-70 and T-75 are same thing except T-70 has much larger objective lens.

 

[IR-V]

Can anyone comment on ... differences from the T60 (other than periscope/non-periscope format)? opinions? comments?

On the thermal imaging performance, nothing changes between the T60 and T70/75. It is the same 640x480 microbolometer that is at its "native" resolution for presentation only at 0.5x. To get to unity (1x), the pixels have to interpolate out to a virtual 320x240 resolution. So those expecting a huge leap in the presentation from the T60 to T70/75 will likely be disappointed.

Until the microbolometers are enhanced to 1280x960, the presentations at unity are going to continue to appear much more coarse than the 0.5x presentations on the current 640x480 T-series thermal imagers. That leap to 1280x960 in an affordable thermal core is still a ways off.

The primary changes in the T70/75 are in the chassis and user controls, with the former being implemented to keep up with changes to the military's baseline optic (for peculiar equipment profiles) for the M4 carbine. The standalone capability is also new, but moot if you intend to use it as clip-on (with day scope).

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Thanks for that info IR-V, perhaps I will stick with my current FLIR Thermal Clip-ons if the only improvement is cosmetic, although the T-65 may still be on my list...

 

[Nukes]

On the thermal imaging performance, nothing changes between the T60 and T70/75. It is the same 640x480 microbolometer that is at its "native" resolution for presentation only at 0.5x. To get to unity (1x), the pixels have to interpolate out to a virtual 320x240 resolution. So those expecting a huge leap in the presentation from the T60 to T70/75 will likely be disappointed.

Until the microbolometers are enhanced to 1280x960, the presentations at unity are going to continue to appear much more coarse than the 0.5x presentations on the current 640x480 T-series thermal imagers. That leap to 1280x960 in an affordable thermal core is still a ways off.

The primary changes in the T70/75 are in the chassis and user controls, with the former being implemented to keep up with changes to the military's baseline optic (for peculiar equipment profiles) for the M4 carbine. The standalone capability is also new, but moot if you intend to use it as clip-on (with day scope).

IR-V

Yes, thank you IR-V.

Any news of recoil-rated fusion units?

 

[TestnDoc]

On the thermal imaging performance, nothing changes between the T60 and T70/75. It is the same 640x480 microbolometer that is at its "native" resolution for presentation only at 0.5x. To get to unity (1x), the pixels have to interpolate out to a virtual 320x240 resolution. So those expecting a huge leap in the presentation from the T60 to T70/75 will likely be disappointed.

Until the microbolometers are enhanced to 1280x960, the presentations at unity are going to continue to appear much more coarse than the 0.5x presentations on the current 640x480 T-series thermal imagers. That leap to 1280x960 in an affordable thermal core is still a ways off.

The primary changes in the T70/75 are in the chassis and user controls, with the former being implemented to keep up with changes to the military's baseline optic (for peculiar equipment profiles) for the M4 carbine. The standalone capability is also new, but moot if you intend to use it as clip-on (with day scope).

IR-V

Thanks IR-V. I was hoping we would see high resolution at 1x also. Can't see trading my T60 for a T70 unless I am missing something?? The T70 does look smaller than the T70 however.

 

[SkyPup]

Another Doctor friend of mine is looking at my FLIR T-50 and wants to buy it, so maybe I will get a T-70 or T-65 after all.

 

[TestnDoc]

Skypup,

If he wants a T60, I might be willing to unload mine and get a new T70. Vic gave ball park pricing above.

 

[SkyPup]

I am going to show him my T-60 tonight, so I will let him know....

 

[wolffman]

So what kind of range are we talking about the the 75 at steel or coyotes/hogs and can u really use it up to 12x? Would be with s&b 5-25 and hensoldt 4-16 and new beast when it comes out.

 

[IR-V]

Thanks for that info IR-V, perhaps I will stick with my current FLIR Thermal Clip-ons if the only improvement is cosmetic, although the T-65 may still be on my list...

Welcome. The T70/75 thermal core has a 17 micron pitch, which is different. However, that means nothing in regard to what you see with your eyeballs at the viewer end. What it should mean is a much smaller housing / chassis on the entire imager, but the T70 is only very slightly smaller in width and height (by about 1/2 inch) than the T60, actually slightly longer than the T60, and quite a bit longer than the T50.

Thermal sensitivity on the T70/75 is no different than that of the T60, so detection in adverse conditions (high ambient temps, high wind, heavy fog, and heavy rain) on the T70/75 is not any improvement over what you have with the T60.

On image resolution, 640 is 640 is 640 is 640 ... is 640.

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Thanks IR-V. I was hoping we would see high resolution at 1x also. Can't see trading my T60 for a T70 unless I am missing something?? The T70 does look smaller than the T70 however.

Welcome, TestnDoc. In order to gain 640x480 resolution at unity (1x), you would need 4x the number of "pixels" covering the same FOV. That's just not going to happen with the T70.

The T70 has about 1/2 inch less width and height than the T60, but actually has more overall length than the T60 due to the straight through optics (versus periscope). By the way, the extra 1/2 inch on the width on the T60 is only because of the 1/2" thick focus knob sticking out on the left side.

That said, the T70 isn't inferior to the T60. If folks have the disposable income to buy a T70, then there is no reason why they shouldn't buy the latest model. I'm just advising folks who think $15,000 is a lot of money that they aren't going to see much, if any, improvement in the actual thermal imaging by upgrading from a T60 to a T70. This, so that there hopefully will not be the heartbreak statements of "I paid $2,500 extra to step up from my T60 to a new T70, and besides the swizzle stick controls and digital zoom there's really not any improvement that I can see in the thermal image quality" and then 7 months later after initial release: "Damn, I paid $15,000 to pre-order a T70 when they were first coming out, and the ex-LE guy down the block just bought one for his pig-hunts for $10,500."

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Yes, thank you IR-V.

Any news of recoil-rated fusion units?

Welcome, Nukes. Sorry for not responding to your PM. I've been away from these boards for several months and I've noticed that the format has changed. I can't reply to PMs sent to me before the format change as they seem to be in "archive" (read only) mode.

The fusion technology that you are interested in will sustain under the recoil from any 5.56x45mm rifle. I've tested it on the M16, HK-53 and Steyr AUG rifles, firing fully automatic, with no ill effects from the recoil forces. I, however, advise that you NOT use it on any rifle chambered for 7.62x51mm or more powerful cartridge. In my opinion, however, you're better off using this particular technology solution for the operational scenarios it was created for, and that is for head or helmet mounting. Note that this mode of use does not preclude firearms that have IR laser aiming capability from being used. That's the inherent versatility of fusion imaging.

The newer units coming are smaller, have higher resolution cores, more powerful firmware, and much more recoil resistance, but these are [for the time being] restricted for military procurements only.

IR-V


IR-V

 

[Nukes]

Thanks again. Fresh PM on the way.

 

[ThermalSpy]

We have a meeting with FLIR today from .gov systems, They are bringing to us in Las Vegas the T70 and T75, we will have our Coronado Navy Seal snipers test shoot these shortly, we will post reviews when done,
I just mounted it on the rail, nice design! it certainly looks alot better then the T50 T60 T65, they listened to customer feedback, it now looks like a scope, the image is good, better then the T60? ..slightly yes. Our sniper instructors will
be sending us feedback on both the FLIR T70 and the L3 LWTS AN/PAS-13G. Please stand by, we will post outcome and review.
Jim Santana

 

[SkyPup]

Major DROOL!

From what I have read, the T-70 series was designed for a Marine Corps contract specifically for the M-4 carbine using an ACOG? But apparently it incorporates other internal reticules for use on other equipment as well.

As regards to the T-60, I do like that platform very much, however more often than NOT it is way too bright and the manual adjustments for brightness display on the T-50 are extremely useful to me more often than not.

 

[TestnDoc]

Major DROOL!

From what I have read, the T-70 series was designed for a Marine Corps contract specifically for the M-4 carbine using an ACOG? But apparently it incorporates other internal reticules for use on other equipment as well.

As regards to the T-60, I do like that platform very much, however more often than NOT it is way too bright and the manual adjustments for brightness display on the T-50 are extremely useful to me more often than not.

Will the T70 be able to be used as a stand alone weapon sight as well?? Does your friend want to buy a practically brand new T60 from me??

 

[IR-V]

Amber Filter

From what I have read, the T-70 series was designed for a Marine Corps contract specifically for the M-4 carbine using an ACOG? But apparently it incorporates other internal reticules for use on other equipment as well.

As regards to the T-60, I do like that platform very much, however more often than NOT it is way too bright and the manual adjustments for brightness display on the T-50 are extremely useful to me more often than not.

The T70 was not specifically optimized for the ACOG, the T60 was and initially as a joint effort with Trijicon. If you peel away the second layer of rubber cemented onto the T60 objective cover, you will see the Trijicon name and logo beneath. The ACOG is now being phased out of the JSOC baseline for peculiar equipment (PEQ) for the M4 Carbine. The T70 will still work with the ACOG, but is optimized for use with the day optic standard for the next evolution of the PEQ "block".

The reason why the default "set and forget" brightness of the FLIR T60 OLED is so high / intense is to facilitate use with ocular filters. The photo below, shows side-by-side comparisons of the FLIR T60 OLED as viewed through a Zeiss / Hensoldt day scope, one in the standard "black and white" and one with amber filter. Note how the amber filter cuts the blooming on the "white hot" image, improves the image contrast, and allows more image details to be detected. The amber filter also reduces eye fatigue and better preserves night-adjusted vision, while reducing backscatter of light emanating from the scope. These images, I feel are good for this demonstration of the benefits of amber filtering, as they were taken during conditions not optimum for thermal imaging: high relative humidity, with precipitation (rain), and 10-15 mph wind -- and which tend to create "white out" or "wash out" on thermal images.

The amber filter significantly improves visualization in white-hot mode, and is frequently used with thermal imaging systems employed by military and law enforcement.

The next set of images show the custom interface I've developed for ocular attachments to the day scopes used with the FLIR T60 or other clip-on thermal imager. It permits any filter, demist shield, or eye-piece that can be attached to the ocular of an AN/PVS-14 to be quickly attached or swapped on / off the ocular of most variable-power day scopes, and provides multiple options for addressing "light security," which is key for remaining covert in dark / low-light conditions.

In my opinion, there is much more that goes into the development of an effective weapons imaging system than just the clip-on optic. I think many shoooters can and should do a lot more than they are doing to extract maximum performance from their optic systems and equipment.

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Thank you once again IR-V, I appreciate that information very much.

The brightness of the T-60 is the main detractor of this unit IMHO, everyone I let use it always comments that it is too bright and as you mentioned, destroys your night adjusted vision in that eye.

I am ordering two Wilcox filters from TNVC now. Do you think that it will fit on the ocular lens of the T-60? It kinda of looks like it would as it is about 30mm in diameter, I would like to put it there if I can since I use ACOGs on two of my night thermal rigs.

I have been using mine on a daily to weekly basis and as I have gathered much more experience with it. I still enjoy using it, however, I am going to get a Wilcox filter and see if that tones down the brightness some, as that would enhance it's use for me and my friends. I do not have my units on all the time since I am scanning with FLIR handhelds, once I do detect a target, I turn on the Clip-On FLIR thermals to make the shot though.

I alternate between four night hunting rifles and my main GOTO rifle has the T-50 on it, mainly because it works almost as well as the T-60 and it is quickly adjustable for brightness. At night hunting ranges out to 225 yards, for me, they are pretty much equivalent in performance.

Bottom line is both of them (T-60 & T-50) absolutely never miss and therefore are total game changers when it comes to real world night hunting!

Last weekend I let one of our top regional Game Officers use mine while we were out hunting hogs, he had zero experience with thermal vision and his first response to me was "it is as bright as a WalMart parking lot at night!" That said, he was amazed at how easy it was to pick off hogs with it.

 

[IR-V]

Welcome, SkyPup. The Wilcox Ind. filters for the PVS-14, etc. are friction-fit onto the ocular snap ring. While the ocular on the T60 has a similar diameter, it doesn't use a snap ring but instead has a raised ridge molded into a rubber sleeve. This ridge is tapered and doesn't provide firm purchase (engagement) for the Wilcox Ind. filter.

While it is preferable to have the amber filter on the ocular of the day scope (ACOG), I understand the limited options of the ACOG interface there. Trijicon once offered a polarization filter assembly that would fit over the ACOG ocular. They have since transitioned to one that attaches to a sleeve fitted to the objective lens. This will work better for you. While the polarization filter for the ACOG doesn't give the amber light filter, it can be rotated to incrementally reduce the amount of light that passes through it, thereby modulating the brightness / intensity of the image as seen through the scope.

There is no question that thermal imaging is unparalleled for detection of warm (or warmer) bodied targets. However, there are many environmental conditions that will completely wash out the contextual imaging on thermal weapons imagers of even the highest sensitivity available. Heavy fog / airborne moisture, high winds, rain, and prolonged, extreme ambient temperatures and relative humidity dramatically reduce the detection capability of thermal scopes. The negative effects on detection performance are compounded when these environmental factors are combined. These conditions -- which are prevalent in the wilderness regions of the U.S. Pacific Northwest -- are where being able to quickly swap in clip-on night vision on one's weapon system will give maximum flexibility and adaptability. Of course, dual-band imaging gives the best of all worlds (both thermal and i^2), but cost can certainly be a prohibiting factor with these technologies in weapons mountable and recoil sustainable form. But, think on this ... if you've invested in a couple T50s, a T60, a T70, you'll be right at the LE price threshold for acquiring a FLIR ADUNS! That's why I'm trying to encourage folks to temper their zeal to jump at each new release of any particular model of thermal imager if it doesn't provide at least 50% improvement on the performance for imaging. Otherwise, the expense of the multiple units adds up pretty quickly and if the same buyer had just held off for a year or two, wringing out the maximum use and usability of a single piece of equipment instead of many only incrementally different models, they would soon be able to afford to buy the "Holy Grail" of dual-band imaging weapons scopes.

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Haha, thanks a million for the insight on the filters, using a polarizing filter to manually adjust the light gain is a good idea.

As far as investing money in thermal equipment now or waiting for the future NV/Thermal Fusion gear, I am a proponent of getting what you need and using it NOW, since once you have it you do not have to worry about getting it anymore and you can use it!

I use mine all the time and it was money well spent as we have been very successful with the FLIR Thermal Clip-Ons, experiencing zero problems with the units themselves, I am glad I got them and don't look back, only forward....

 

[ThermalSpy]

Yes The T70 can be used as a stand alone, unlike the T60, the T70 does have a reticle, although the lcd is like the T60, a very tiny lcd screen thats pretty much useless without a day scope. I do like the battery slot, I was putting in batteries
this morning and put them all in one way and it worked, same with the CR123, you can put them in anyway you want, AA's or CR123's, even one battery will work, pretty nice feature.

 

[IR-V]

Haha, thanks a million for the insight on the filters, using a polarizing filter to manually adjust the light gain is a good idea.

As far as investing money in thermal equipment now or waiting for the future NV/Thermal Fusion gear, I am a proponent of getting what you need and using it NOW, since once you have it you do not have to worry about getting it anymore and you can use it!

I use mine all the time and it was money well spent as we have been very successful with the FLIR Thermal Clip-Ons, experiencing zero problems with the units themselves, I am glad I got them and don't look back, only forward....

Welcome. Admit it, SkyPup -- you're just a whore when it comes to thermal imaging technology. LOL

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

I'm a Thermal Slut of the First Magnitude....

 

[SkyPup]

I think you are reading my mind, IRV.....

 

[IR-V]

Going long: wavelength = 1mm, frequency = 300 GHz, photon energy = 1.7 eV

I think you are reading my mind, IRV.....

Just sensing at the same, long wavelength, Man!

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

I'm a Thermal Slut of the First Magnitude....

Infra Red-light district! LOL

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Infra Red-light district! LOL

IR-V

NICE!

 

[SkyPup]

The FLIR ThermoSight™ T70, which was selected for the USSOCOM Special Operations Peculiar MODification (SOPMOD).

The T70 is an in-line, clip-on thermal weapon sight that utilizes a proven 640×480, 17µm detector and is effective on all weapons from carbines to .50 cal semi-automatic and bolt action sniper rifles.

The T70′s long-wave infrared imagery is optimized for day scope magnification between 1x and 8x.

FLIR ThermoSight? T70 - P&R Infrared

 

[TestnDoc]

The FLIR ThermoSight™ T70, which was selected for the USSOCOM Special Operations Peculiar MODification (SOPMOD).

The T70 is an in-line, clip-on thermal weapon sight that utilizes a proven 640×480, 17µm detector and is effective on all weapons from carbines to .50 cal semi-automatic and bolt action sniper rifles.

The T70′s long-wave infrared imagery is optimized for day scope magnification between 1x and 8x.

FLIR ThermoSight? T70 - P&R Infrared

Very nice! Do you have one ordered??

 

[SkyPup]

It has the new 640X512 core in it instead of the incorrectly labeled 640X480 core in the literature, and yes I have one on pre-order.....will do a review when I get it.

 

[SkyPup]

Would be nice if this unit has the IRON pallet like the FLIR M-18 does, will find out!

 

[TestnDoc]

Iron setting is cool. I love my M18. IR-V swayed me on the T70, at least for now.....lol

 

[ThermalSpy]

Flir t70

Would be nice if this unit has the IRON pallet like the FLIR M-18 does, will find out!

SkyPup yes it does! Its a TAU! Did you get your T60 from SPI? If not you must have got it from a dealer of theirs whom bought them from SPI, SPI was selling them at $10,500 and made the video out cable, they included it for free, FLIR wanted $600 for this cable.
SPI were the only company to sell the T60 as they bought all of them directly from FLIR. The T70 is great, so is the Insight L3 LWTS AN/PAS-13V. Its up to the customer to decide which one is better, and which one is best for the money.