- Thread starter saojao
- Start date
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Great point, Fred!!
Great point, Fred!!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Emouse, given the current world records at 1000 yards, I do not think one can be so sure that MOA accuracy at 5k from a shoulder-fired rifle (supported by bags or a bipod, I would assume) is not possible.
Emouse, given the current world records at 1000 yards, I do not think one can be so sure that MOA accuracy at 5k from a shoulder-fired rifle (supported by bags or a bipod, I would assume) is not possible.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Luck has a lot to do with it way past 1000 yards. And that is a beast of a scope posted above. Only a minor 4k for a tube and some glass
Luck has a lot to do with it way past 1000 yards. And that is a beast of a scope posted above. Only a minor 4k for a tube and some glass
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I've talked with saojao and I'll hopefully be there when he gets the beast rebarreled and ready for some range time.I've fired(at least once)almost every caliber made to date and some that have never seen the public eye's too.I'm psyched to see and fire this rifle.There's alot more to this rifle and caliber design then just being accurate at long ranges.That alone makes this build alot more interesting to me than any science paper ever written.
I've talked with saojao and I'll hopefully be there when he gets the beast rebarreled and ready for some range time.I've fired(at least once)almost every caliber made to date and some that have never seen the public eye's too.I'm psyched to see and fire this rifle.There's alot more to this rifle and caliber design then just being accurate at long ranges.That alone makes this build alot more interesting to me than any science paper ever written.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Not just luck, gathbert, though I know you did not say just luck. Part skill, part art, part experience, part luck, IMHO.
Not just luck, gathbert, though I know you did not say just luck. Part skill, part art, part experience, part luck, IMHO.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
wow, these folks that are going crazy over the time it's taken to get this together have obviously either not, or forgotten how much time it takes to put something together. I am still waiting for all of the components for my .338 build to get to the smith after 5 months of initial orders.
Jon, you still have my confidence and endorsement as a supporter of your endeavors!
And let me say one thing to the nay-sayers, I am in the sandbox watching this thread. It's like getting the next volume in a series when something new arrives to Jon. I'm addicted, and I get to see it when I come home. So leave the man alone if you don't have something nice to say. If you doubt, then consider it a fiction, shut your mouth and move on!
To everyone else, like me, keep looking forward to the finish line. A design like this is a marathon!
God Bless.
wow, these folks that are going crazy over the time it's taken to get this together have obviously either not, or forgotten how much time it takes to put something together. I am still waiting for all of the components for my .338 build to get to the smith after 5 months of initial orders.
Jon, you still have my confidence and endorsement as a supporter of your endeavors!
And let me say one thing to the nay-sayers, I am in the sandbox watching this thread. It's like getting the next volume in a series when something new arrives to Jon. I'm addicted, and I get to see it when I come home. So leave the man alone if you don't have something nice to say. If you doubt, then consider it a fiction, shut your mouth and move on!
To everyone else, like me, keep looking forward to the finish line. A design like this is a marathon!
God Bless.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Emouse, given the current world records at 1000 yards, I do not think one can be so sure that MOA accuracy at 5k from a shoulder-fired rifle (supported by bags or a bipod, I would assume) is not possible.</div></div>
We are talking bench guns now correct? 5k shoulder fired off a bipod is pointless.
at say 50mag just work out how small a MOA target would be and the probabillity of a first round hit????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Emouse, given the current world records at 1000 yards, I do not think one can be so sure that MOA accuracy at 5k from a shoulder-fired rifle (supported by bags or a bipod, I would assume) is not possible.</div></div>
We are talking bench guns now correct? 5k shoulder fired off a bipod is pointless.
at say 50mag just work out how small a MOA target would be and the probabillity of a first round hit????
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Emouse, let's move on... all the comments regarding size, weight and practical usability have been already made many times by several posters in the first few pages.
Now we want pics of the monster and a nice report!
Emouse, let's move on... all the comments regarding size, weight and practical usability have been already made many times by several posters in the first few pages.
Now we want pics of the monster and a nice report!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Emouse, again, I am not so sure, even with a bipod. You may be right, but I have shot a sub .5 MOA group (using a custom 7mm RUM) at over 1200 yards, prone in the sand, using a bipod. I don't care whether anyone believes that or not, since I have been argued with about it many times. I do know that 1200 yards is not 5k, and that a lot can happen between 0 and 5K that is not nearly as important at 1200. Having said that, I would like to point out that, depending on the actual weapon, cartridge, brake (if any), bipod (if used), and operator, a sub MOA group at 5k, shoulder fired off a bipod, just might be possible, and we might not get to see that until it is tried with a rifle such as saojao is building.
Emouse, again, I am not so sure, even with a bipod. You may be right, but I have shot a sub .5 MOA group (using a custom 7mm RUM) at over 1200 yards, prone in the sand, using a bipod. I don't care whether anyone believes that or not, since I have been argued with about it many times. I do know that 1200 yards is not 5k, and that a lot can happen between 0 and 5K that is not nearly as important at 1200. Having said that, I would like to point out that, depending on the actual weapon, cartridge, brake (if any), bipod (if used), and operator, a sub MOA group at 5k, shoulder fired off a bipod, just might be possible, and we might not get to see that until it is tried with a rifle such as saojao is building.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
To each his own but a 50+ inch spread without even taking into consideration the extreme environmental variables at 5k doesn't appear to be practical against anything that walks on 2 legs.
Someone should measure just the effect of one's heartbeat not only trying to keep the crosshairs on target at that distance but also the variance in poi. I don't buy for a second that a 1 moa shooter at 1k translates the same at 5k.
I suppose there are no practical limits for fun factor though..good luck.
To each his own but a 50+ inch spread without even taking into consideration the extreme environmental variables at 5k doesn't appear to be practical against anything that walks on 2 legs.
Someone should measure just the effect of one's heartbeat not only trying to keep the crosshairs on target at that distance but also the variance in poi. I don't buy for a second that a 1 moa shooter at 1k translates the same at 5k.
I suppose there are no practical limits for fun factor though..good luck.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Dark Horse, I have no beef with what you said, but I would like to point out that the Russian Olympic shooters have known how to delay their next heartbeat long enough to get a shot off without the shot being disturbed by a heartbeat, for years.
I did not say that results at 1k translate directly to results at 5k, I simply said that a sub MOA group at 5k might be possible, given some of the results that some shooters are now getting at 1k, or even further.
Dark Horse, I have no beef with what you said, but I would like to point out that the Russian Olympic shooters have known how to delay their next heartbeat long enough to get a shot off without the shot being disturbed by a heartbeat, for years.
I did not say that results at 1k translate directly to results at 5k, I simply said that a sub MOA group at 5k might be possible, given some of the results that some shooters are now getting at 1k, or even further.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Well when I finish my Ninja training or become a Russian Olympic shooter I will consider buying this rifle. Just busting your balls..hey I wasn't picking on you, just posted after you and was stating my feelings on the concept, not your statements.
I wish the guy luck, don't want to see him throw money away.
Well when I finish my Ninja training or become a Russian Olympic shooter I will consider buying this rifle. Just busting your balls..hey I wasn't picking on you, just posted after you and was stating my feelings on the concept, not your statements.
I wish the guy luck, don't want to see him throw money away.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SiLo ™</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Valdada has pics and info on the 12-52x56 up btw. </div></div>
Only 100 MOA from a 40mm tube? is it because of the high magnification? </div></div>
Probably.
The IOR 6-24x56 has only 16 mils travel in a 35mm tube.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SiLo ™</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Valdada has pics and info on the 12-52x56 up btw. </div></div>
Only 100 MOA from a 40mm tube? is it because of the high magnification? </div></div>
Probably.
The IOR 6-24x56 has only 16 mils travel in a 35mm tube.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, if you can tune that monster to 0.25 MOA it would be just the ticket for the clear cold air of the Afghan mountain tops at 14 to 16 thousand feet elevation plus. Two and three quarters miles is close to the max range of the old 81 mm mortar. I don't think the other guys would have anything to retalliate with. I can think of some real neat ways to use that thing!
</div></div>
After you get everything worked out with the weapon system you need to go hook up with the robotics department at MIT, FN, Lockheed, or Raytheon, and make an air-droppable auto or remote controlled turret with thermal imaging and use it as an area denial system for open terrain. </div></div>
Like this:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mini-drones-20110531,0,5569311.story
latimes.com
Pentagon seeks mini-weapons for new age of warfare
In an effort to cut costs and avoid civilian casualties, manufacturers are developing small 'smart bombs,' drones that resemble model planes and microscopic crystals to tag enemy targets.
By W.J. Hennigan, Los Angeles Times
6:18 PM PDT, May 30, 2011
Under mounting pressure to keep its massive budget in check, the Pentagon is looking to cheaper, smaller weapons to wage war in the 21st century.
A new generation of weaponry is being readied in clandestine laboratories across the nation that puts a priority on pintsized technology that would be more precise in warfare and less likely to cause civilian casualties. Increasingly, the Pentagon is being forced to discard expensive, hulking, Cold War-era armaments that exact a heavy toll on property and human lives.
At L-3 Interstate Electronics Corp. in Anaheim, technicians work in secure rooms developing a GPS guidance system for a 13-pound "smart bomb" that would be attached to small, low-flying drone.
Engineers in Simi Valley at AeroVironment Inc. are developing a mini-cruise missile designed to fit into a soldier's rucksack, be fired from a mortar and scour the battlefield for enemy targets.
And in suburban Portland, Ore. Voxtel Inc. is concocting an invisible mist to be sprayed on enemy fighters and make them shine brightly in night-vision goggles.
These miniature weapons have one thing in common: They will be delivered with the help of small robotic planes. Drones have grown in importance as the Pentagon has seen them play a vital role in Iraq, Afghanistan and reportedly in the raid on Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
Now, engineers in Southern California and elsewhere are refining drone technology to deliver a powerful wallop with increasingly smaller robotic planes — many of which resemble model aircraft buzzing around local parks.
This work is aimed primarily at one buyer —the Pentagon, which is seeking a total of $671 billion for fiscal 2012. Of that, drones represent $4.8 billion, a small but growing segment of the defense budget — and that doesn't include spending on robotic weapons technology in the classified portion of the budget.
This comes at a time when expensive weapons programs, like Marine Corps amphibious assault vehicles and Navy cruisers, are being eyed for trims.
Although some mini-weapons may resemble toys, they represent a new wave of sophisticated technology in modern warfare, which has forced the military and weapons-makers to think small. And they are just a few under development that have been disclosed.
"There are a lot of weapons in the military's arsenal," said Lt. Col. Brad Beach, an official who coordinates the Marines' drone technology. "But what we don't have is something small."
The military is flush with multi-ton bunker-busting bombs designed to reduce fortified buildings into smoldering rubble.
But Marines on the front lines in Afghanistan say there is an urgent need for a weapon that is small and powerful enough to protect them from insurgents planting roadside bombs.
Marines already have small spy drones with high-powered cameras, but what they need is a way to destroy the enemies that their drones discover.
Looking to fill the need, the 13-pound "smart bomb" has been under development for three years. The 2-foot-long bomb is steered by a GPS-guided system made in Anaheim. The bomb is called Small Tactical Munition, or STM, and is under development by Raytheon Co.
"Soldiers are watching bad guys plant" roadside bombs and "can't do anything about it," said Cody Tretschok, who leads work on the program at Raytheon. "They have to call in an air strike, which can take 30 to 60 minutes. The time lapse is too great."
The idea is that the small bomb could be slung under the spy plane's wing, dropped to a specific point using GPS coordinates or a laser-guidance system, and blast apart "soft" targets, such as pickup trucks and individuals, located 15,000 feet below.
Raytheon does not yet have a contract for the bomb and is building it entirely with its own money.
"We're proactively anticipating the military's need," said Tretschok, who is testing the technology at the Army's Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona.
In a similar fashion, drone-maker AeroVironment in Simi Valley didn't wait for the government when it started to build its Switchblade mini-cruise missile to seek and destroy nearby targets.
The little missile, which looks less harmless than many Fourth of July fireworks, is fired from a mortar, unfolds its wings as it goes, and begins sending live video and GPS coordinates to the soldier who launched it.
The 2-foot-long battery-powered drone would be tipped with a tiny warhead and remotely operated from a handheld controller. It is being designed to fly above a warzone for at least five minutes for more than a mile at a time.
"This technology gives the war fighter the ability to pinpoint where and when he strikes," said Steven Gitlin, an AeroVironment spokesman. "It's all about precision."
Critics say the technology may be too imprecise and hard to track, said Michael E. O'Hanlon, a military analyst at the Brookings Institution.
But the weapons have sophisticated internal guidance systems, which is key because much of today's fighting takes place in crowded urban environments, such as targets located in or near population centers, he said.
"Weapons are sometimes only usable today if they're small. The bottom line is: You're not going to go around dropping 500-pound bombs everywhere," O'Hanlon added. "Collateral damage is unacceptable in modern warfare."
Knowing this, the military has embarked on using mini-drones for a "tagging, tracking and locating" initiative, which centers on secretly marking a target with invisible sprays and other identifiers so they don't get lost in crowds.
Companies like Beaverton, Ore.-based Voxtel have benefited from the millions of dollars that the government is handing to contractors for research. The small 30-person company, which makes tagging products to prevent the counterfeiting of bank notes, lottery tickets and other items, now believes its microscopic nanocrystals — which become part of an invisible spray — may be are exactly what the military needs.
Tagging, tracking and locating "is a hot topic in government work," said George Williams, company president. "It isn't easy tracking somebody in a crowded urban environment like what is seen in today's wars."
Indeed. Earlier this year, the Air Force asked for proposals on developing a way to "tag" targets with "clouds" of unseen materials sprayed from quiet, low-flying drones.
In its request, the Air Force said "one method of distribution would be 'crop-dusting' from a sufficiently high altitude (to avoid detection) and letting the dust-cloud fall on a target or in front of it if it is moving."
Other methods suggested to covertly mark the targets were to "pneumatically blow a cloud" or "burst above" them.
As the military moves into miniaturizing its weapon stockpile, contractors believe applications such as these may be crucial to the overall effort. "What we do is just one part of a complex system," Voxtel President Williams said. "We play a small role."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, if you can tune that monster to 0.25 MOA it would be just the ticket for the clear cold air of the Afghan mountain tops at 14 to 16 thousand feet elevation plus. Two and three quarters miles is close to the max range of the old 81 mm mortar. I don't think the other guys would have anything to retalliate with. I can think of some real neat ways to use that thing!
After you get everything worked out with the weapon system you need to go hook up with the robotics department at MIT, FN, Lockheed, or Raytheon, and make an air-droppable auto or remote controlled turret with thermal imaging and use it as an area denial system for open terrain. </div></div>
Like this:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mini-drones-20110531,0,5569311.story
latimes.com
Pentagon seeks mini-weapons for new age of warfare
In an effort to cut costs and avoid civilian casualties, manufacturers are developing small 'smart bombs,' drones that resemble model planes and microscopic crystals to tag enemy targets.
By W.J. Hennigan, Los Angeles Times
6:18 PM PDT, May 30, 2011
Under mounting pressure to keep its massive budget in check, the Pentagon is looking to cheaper, smaller weapons to wage war in the 21st century.
A new generation of weaponry is being readied in clandestine laboratories across the nation that puts a priority on pintsized technology that would be more precise in warfare and less likely to cause civilian casualties. Increasingly, the Pentagon is being forced to discard expensive, hulking, Cold War-era armaments that exact a heavy toll on property and human lives.
At L-3 Interstate Electronics Corp. in Anaheim, technicians work in secure rooms developing a GPS guidance system for a 13-pound "smart bomb" that would be attached to small, low-flying drone.
Engineers in Simi Valley at AeroVironment Inc. are developing a mini-cruise missile designed to fit into a soldier's rucksack, be fired from a mortar and scour the battlefield for enemy targets.
And in suburban Portland, Ore. Voxtel Inc. is concocting an invisible mist to be sprayed on enemy fighters and make them shine brightly in night-vision goggles.
These miniature weapons have one thing in common: They will be delivered with the help of small robotic planes. Drones have grown in importance as the Pentagon has seen them play a vital role in Iraq, Afghanistan and reportedly in the raid on Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
Now, engineers in Southern California and elsewhere are refining drone technology to deliver a powerful wallop with increasingly smaller robotic planes — many of which resemble model aircraft buzzing around local parks.
This work is aimed primarily at one buyer —the Pentagon, which is seeking a total of $671 billion for fiscal 2012. Of that, drones represent $4.8 billion, a small but growing segment of the defense budget — and that doesn't include spending on robotic weapons technology in the classified portion of the budget.
This comes at a time when expensive weapons programs, like Marine Corps amphibious assault vehicles and Navy cruisers, are being eyed for trims.
Although some mini-weapons may resemble toys, they represent a new wave of sophisticated technology in modern warfare, which has forced the military and weapons-makers to think small. And they are just a few under development that have been disclosed.
"There are a lot of weapons in the military's arsenal," said Lt. Col. Brad Beach, an official who coordinates the Marines' drone technology. "But what we don't have is something small."
The military is flush with multi-ton bunker-busting bombs designed to reduce fortified buildings into smoldering rubble.
But Marines on the front lines in Afghanistan say there is an urgent need for a weapon that is small and powerful enough to protect them from insurgents planting roadside bombs.
Marines already have small spy drones with high-powered cameras, but what they need is a way to destroy the enemies that their drones discover.
Looking to fill the need, the 13-pound "smart bomb" has been under development for three years. The 2-foot-long bomb is steered by a GPS-guided system made in Anaheim. The bomb is called Small Tactical Munition, or STM, and is under development by Raytheon Co.
"Soldiers are watching bad guys plant" roadside bombs and "can't do anything about it," said Cody Tretschok, who leads work on the program at Raytheon. "They have to call in an air strike, which can take 30 to 60 minutes. The time lapse is too great."
The idea is that the small bomb could be slung under the spy plane's wing, dropped to a specific point using GPS coordinates or a laser-guidance system, and blast apart "soft" targets, such as pickup trucks and individuals, located 15,000 feet below.
Raytheon does not yet have a contract for the bomb and is building it entirely with its own money.
"We're proactively anticipating the military's need," said Tretschok, who is testing the technology at the Army's Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona.
In a similar fashion, drone-maker AeroVironment in Simi Valley didn't wait for the government when it started to build its Switchblade mini-cruise missile to seek and destroy nearby targets.
The little missile, which looks less harmless than many Fourth of July fireworks, is fired from a mortar, unfolds its wings as it goes, and begins sending live video and GPS coordinates to the soldier who launched it.
The 2-foot-long battery-powered drone would be tipped with a tiny warhead and remotely operated from a handheld controller. It is being designed to fly above a warzone for at least five minutes for more than a mile at a time.
"This technology gives the war fighter the ability to pinpoint where and when he strikes," said Steven Gitlin, an AeroVironment spokesman. "It's all about precision."
Critics say the technology may be too imprecise and hard to track, said Michael E. O'Hanlon, a military analyst at the Brookings Institution.
But the weapons have sophisticated internal guidance systems, which is key because much of today's fighting takes place in crowded urban environments, such as targets located in or near population centers, he said.
"Weapons are sometimes only usable today if they're small. The bottom line is: You're not going to go around dropping 500-pound bombs everywhere," O'Hanlon added. "Collateral damage is unacceptable in modern warfare."
Knowing this, the military has embarked on using mini-drones for a "tagging, tracking and locating" initiative, which centers on secretly marking a target with invisible sprays and other identifiers so they don't get lost in crowds.
Companies like Beaverton, Ore.-based Voxtel have benefited from the millions of dollars that the government is handing to contractors for research. The small 30-person company, which makes tagging products to prevent the counterfeiting of bank notes, lottery tickets and other items, now believes its microscopic nanocrystals — which become part of an invisible spray — may be are exactly what the military needs.
Tagging, tracking and locating "is a hot topic in government work," said George Williams, company president. "It isn't easy tracking somebody in a crowded urban environment like what is seen in today's wars."
Indeed. Earlier this year, the Air Force asked for proposals on developing a way to "tag" targets with "clouds" of unseen materials sprayed from quiet, low-flying drones.
In its request, the Air Force said "one method of distribution would be 'crop-dusting' from a sufficiently high altitude (to avoid detection) and letting the dust-cloud fall on a target or in front of it if it is moving."
Other methods suggested to covertly mark the targets were to "pneumatically blow a cloud" or "burst above" them.
As the military moves into miniaturizing its weapon stockpile, contractors believe applications such as these may be crucial to the overall effort. "What we do is just one part of a complex system," Voxtel President Williams said. "We play a small role."
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Give's you something to think about doesn't it?
Give's you something to think about doesn't it?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
It sure does.
It sure does.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
how's the progress coming on your project?
how's the progress coming on your project?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Great. Cant wait to see it!
Great. Cant wait to see it!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Hope it turns out "just right" man!
Hope it turns out "just right" man!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I keep finding instances where people have fired 5 shot 0.25 MOA groups at extended range. Why can't that same precision be held at 5,486 yards (5 k.)? A nice calm day at ten thousand feet elevation with with a good scope, good gun, good solid rest, no heat waves, a little bit of luck and shooting between heartbeats like the biathlon guys do could concievably yield a 14 inch group at 3.1 miles. GO FOR IT!!
I keep finding instances where people have fired 5 shot 0.25 MOA groups at extended range. Why can't that same precision be held at 5,486 yards (5 k.)? A nice calm day at ten thousand feet elevation with with a good scope, good gun, good solid rest, no heat waves, a little bit of luck and shooting between heartbeats like the biathlon guys do could concievably yield a 14 inch group at 3.1 miles. GO FOR IT!!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I'd be willing to give that type of accuracy a few tries with that gun
I'd be willing to give that type of accuracy a few tries with that gun
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep finding instances where people have fired 5 shot 0.25 MOA groups at extended range. Why can't that same precision be held at 5,486 yards (5 k.)? A nice calm day at ten thousand feet elevation with with a good scope, good gun, good solid rest, no heat waves, a little bit of luck and shooting between heartbeats like the biathlon guys do could concievably yield a 14 inch group at 3.1 miles. GO FOR IT!! </div></div>I don't think it is realistic to think holding .25 moa at 5k is possible -fantasy stuff
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep finding instances where people have fired 5 shot 0.25 MOA groups at extended range. Why can't that same precision be held at 5,486 yards (5 k.)? A nice calm day at ten thousand feet elevation with with a good scope, good gun, good solid rest, no heat waves, a little bit of luck and shooting between heartbeats like the biathlon guys do could concievably yield a 14 inch group at 3.1 miles. GO FOR IT!!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
What you think makes no difference. What makes a difference is the truth, regardless of whether your or anyone else's mind can deal with it. Such groups are possible. I said POSSIBLE. Some have been done. Many more have been unsuccessfully attempted. The people building this rifle are not ones I would suggest betting against, but go ahead, if you really want to.
What you think makes no difference. What makes a difference is the truth, regardless of whether your or anyone else's mind can deal with it. Such groups are possible. I said POSSIBLE. Some have been done. Many more have been unsuccessfully attempted. The people building this rifle are not ones I would suggest betting against, but go ahead, if you really want to.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
WHERE ARE THE PICS?
WHERE ARE THE PICS?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To each his own but a 50+ inch spread without even taking into consideration the extreme environmental variables at 5k doesn't appear to be practical against anything that walks on 2 legs.
Someone should measure just the effect of one's heartbeat not only trying to keep the crosshairs on target at that distance but also the variance in poi. I don't buy for a second that a 1 moa shooter at 1k translates the same at 5k.
I suppose there are no practical limits for fun factor though..good luck. </div></div>Eh, the Barrett m82 is give or take a 3 moa gun, and there have been plenty of kills at distances that would equal a 50" spread with that rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To each his own but a 50+ inch spread without even taking into consideration the extreme environmental variables at 5k doesn't appear to be practical against anything that walks on 2 legs.
Someone should measure just the effect of one's heartbeat not only trying to keep the crosshairs on target at that distance but also the variance in poi. I don't buy for a second that a 1 moa shooter at 1k translates the same at 5k.
I suppose there are no practical limits for fun factor though..good luck. </div></div>Eh, the Barrett m82 is give or take a 3 moa gun, and there have been plenty of kills at distances that would equal a 50" spread with that rifle.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]Eh, the Barrett m82 is give or take a 3 moa gun.</div></div>
It drives me crazy that even to this day far too many people simply cannot accept that fact.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]Eh, the Barrett m82 is give or take a 3 moa gun.</div></div>
It drives me crazy that even to this day far too many people simply cannot accept that fact.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
+ 1- dogtown
+ 1- dogtown
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
But the .50 caloober is sooper accurate!!! Its the best gun ever!
Yeah its good, but its not laser accurate either. I agree that people who think the Barrett is that good need to do a little research.
Standing by for pics
But the .50 caloober is sooper accurate!!! Its the best gun ever!
Yeah its good, but its not laser accurate either. I agree that people who think the Barrett is that good need to do a little research.
Standing by for pics
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I think you've watched a particular Mark Walberg movie one to many times--- 5k ain't 1000 or 2000 yards --5k of climate effected conditions 1 moa , I think you better let someone prove his rifle can actually walk before you place bets on it winning a race
I think you've watched a particular Mark Walberg movie one to many times--- 5k ain't 1000 or 2000 yards --5k of climate effected conditions 1 moa , I think you better let someone prove his rifle can actually walk before you place bets on it winning a race
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Gentlemen, mrjim was talking 0.25 moa at 5k not 2.5. I will go out on a limb here and proclaim you will never see a shoulder fired rifle that is capable of consistantly producing .25 moa at 5k unless the projectile is assisted by some sort of gps guidance system.
Gentlemen, mrjim was talking 0.25 moa at 5k not 2.5. I will go out on a limb here and proclaim you will never see a shoulder fired rifle that is capable of consistantly producing .25 moa at 5k unless the projectile is assisted by some sort of gps guidance system.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
OK! You guys are forcing me to demonstrate my lack of knowlege/understanding here. First, I understand that climatic conditions will affect where your five shot <span style="font-style: italic">group</span> goes even if it measures 0.25 MOA. In those sort of conditions a (let's call it what it is) remarkable 0.25 MOA <span style="font-style: italic">group</span> may not be anywhere near the bulls-eye but the <span style="font-style: italic">group</span> is still 0.25 MOA. Now that same group if it had not impacted anything at shorter ranges should still be a 0.25 MOA group at any range. We all know the gun will almost always out-shoot the shooter and it's unlikely that anyone can consistently hold 0.25 MOA (I do well to hold 1 MOA).
OK! You guys are forcing me to demonstrate my lack of knowlege/understanding here. First, I understand that climatic conditions will affect where your five shot <span style="font-style: italic">group</span> goes even if it measures 0.25 MOA. In those sort of conditions a (let's call it what it is) remarkable 0.25 MOA <span style="font-style: italic">group</span> may not be anywhere near the bulls-eye but the <span style="font-style: italic">group</span> is still 0.25 MOA. Now that same group if it had not impacted anything at shorter ranges should still be a 0.25 MOA group at any range. We all know the gun will almost always out-shoot the shooter and it's unlikely that anyone can consistently hold 0.25 MOA (I do well to hold 1 MOA).
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To each his own but a 50+ inch spread without even taking into consideration the extreme environmental variables at 5k doesn't appear to be practical against anything that walks on 2 legs.
Someone should measure just the effect of one's heartbeat not only trying to keep the crosshairs on target at that distance but also the variance in poi. I don't buy for a second that a 1 moa shooter at 1k translates the same at 5k.
I suppose there are no practical limits for fun factor though..good luck. </div></div>Eh, the Barrett m82 is give or take a 3 moa gun, and there have been plenty of kills at distances that would equal a 50" spread with that rifle. </div></div>
However, I would to a huge differentiation between shooting up people in war compared to hunting, for one of those two I would consider "pray and spray" to be very unethical..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To each his own but a 50+ inch spread without even taking into consideration the extreme environmental variables at 5k doesn't appear to be practical against anything that walks on 2 legs.
Someone should measure just the effect of one's heartbeat not only trying to keep the crosshairs on target at that distance but also the variance in poi. I don't buy for a second that a 1 moa shooter at 1k translates the same at 5k.
I suppose there are no practical limits for fun factor though..good luck. </div></div>Eh, the Barrett m82 is give or take a 3 moa gun, and there have been plenty of kills at distances that would equal a 50" spread with that rifle. </div></div>
However, I would to a huge differentiation between shooting up people in war compared to hunting, for one of those two I would consider "pray and spray" to be very unethical..
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
mrjim, if you intended to demonstrate your lack of knowledge about hitting little bitty targets way over yonder, your last post was a resounding success. Take a little time and go educate yourself then come back and we can have a resonable discussion.
Ill give you a good place to start, get access to a good ballistic program and start inputing data with the BC and velocity that this wonder weapon is supposed to have. Now vary the velocity as little as 5 fps, now vary the wind speed as little as 1 mph. After you accomplish this assignment I think you will begin to understand the complexity of trying to hold .25 moa at 5K.
mrjim, if you intended to demonstrate your lack of knowledge about hitting little bitty targets way over yonder, your last post was a resounding success. Take a little time and go educate yourself then come back and we can have a resonable discussion.
Ill give you a good place to start, get access to a good ballistic program and start inputing data with the BC and velocity that this wonder weapon is supposed to have. Now vary the velocity as little as 5 fps, now vary the wind speed as little as 1 mph. After you accomplish this assignment I think you will begin to understand the complexity of trying to hold .25 moa at 5K.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I wonder sometimes if some members think 5k is only a tad further than 400y --5k is a massive equation of unseen forces and no one will be shooting 1moa soon let alone .25
I wonder sometimes if some members think 5k is only a tad further than 400y --5k is a massive equation of unseen forces and no one will be shooting 1moa soon let alone .25
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
It's his time and money.
Let him do what he want's to with them both.
Opinion's are just like.............you know the rest.
If nothing else this will be a learning experiance for all.
It's his time and money.
Let him do what he want's to with them both.
Opinion's are just like.............you know the rest.
If nothing else this will be a learning experiance for all.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zuke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If nothing else this will be a learning experiance for all. </div></div>
Thankfully there are shooters who push the boundaries.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zuke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If nothing else this will be a learning experiance for all. </div></div>
Thankfully there are shooters who push the boundaries.
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I am totally supportive of anyone who wants to push the limits. I myself have been pushing the limits with the high BC 375 solids for about three yrs now. I have learned the hard way that there are forces in nature and mechanics that limit what can be done with conventional shoulder fired weapons. These forces are not someones opinion, they are real, static, and continually present. This is why there will never be a consistant .25 moa rifle of conventional design at 5K. Back a while ago there was a few fellows who attempted to shoot consecutive .25 moa groups at 100 yds and post the pictures. As I recall there were no pictures of consecutive .25 moa groups posted. The point being that it is very difficult to shoot consistant .25 moa groups at 100 yds. 5k, you can forget it.
I am totally supportive of anyone who wants to push the limits. I myself have been pushing the limits with the high BC 375 solids for about three yrs now. I have learned the hard way that there are forces in nature and mechanics that limit what can be done with conventional shoulder fired weapons. These forces are not someones opinion, they are real, static, and continually present. This is why there will never be a consistant .25 moa rifle of conventional design at 5K. Back a while ago there was a few fellows who attempted to shoot consecutive .25 moa groups at 100 yds and post the pictures. As I recall there were no pictures of consecutive .25 moa groups posted. The point being that it is very difficult to shoot consistant .25 moa groups at 100 yds. 5k, you can forget it.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> mrjim, if you intended to demonstrate your lack of knowledge about hitting little bitty targets way over yonder, your last post was a resounding success. Take a little time and go educate yourself then come back and we can have a resonable discussion.
Ill give you a good place to start, get access to a good ballistic program and start inputing data with the BC and velocity that this wonder weapon is supposed to have. Now vary the velocity as little as 5 fps, now vary the wind speed as little as 1 mph. After you accomplish this assignment I think you will begin to understand the complexity of trying to hold .25 moa at 5K. </div></div>
AH HAH! I see! All I had to do was find a ballistics program that would extend beyond 1,000 yards. I should have realized that the equations are not linear.
I'm afraid they may have some serious problems with making ammunition with velocities consistent enough to achieve their goal of 0.50 MOA at 3,000 yds. I now have a different (and more cynical) point of view.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> mrjim, if you intended to demonstrate your lack of knowledge about hitting little bitty targets way over yonder, your last post was a resounding success. Take a little time and go educate yourself then come back and we can have a resonable discussion.
Ill give you a good place to start, get access to a good ballistic program and start inputing data with the BC and velocity that this wonder weapon is supposed to have. Now vary the velocity as little as 5 fps, now vary the wind speed as little as 1 mph. After you accomplish this assignment I think you will begin to understand the complexity of trying to hold .25 moa at 5K. </div></div>
AH HAH! I see! All I had to do was find a ballistics program that would extend beyond 1,000 yards. I should have realized that the equations are not linear.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
That point of view goes great with your avatar pic I would say. But hey, why not try and see how big of a rifle somebody can make? As long as it shoots, I'm sure most of us will be happy.
That point of view goes great with your avatar pic I would say. But hey, why not try and see how big of a rifle somebody can make? As long as it shoots, I'm sure most of us will be happy.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
ch'e, if you know the details of that movie to that degree, you have watched it a heck of a lot more times than I have.
Since there are people pushing the boundaries of ELR shooting beyond what most people can imagine, let alone believe, and since some of the people pushing said boundaries do not enter competitions, video their shooting, photograph their targets and post them on the internet, or care at all what you, I, or anyone else believes, and since many of the people here will not believe anything without seeing photos or video, you are welcome to go on believing that 0.25MOA at 5k is impossible.
I do understand that the ballistic parameters are not the same (or even only 2.5 times as large) at 5k as they are at 2k, but insurmountable? I don't think so.
In 1491, everyone was absolutely certain that the earth was flat. Understandably so, since they were never taught, or shown differently. After one man found that idea to be in error, look what happened.
ch'e, if you know the details of that movie to that degree, you have watched it a heck of a lot more times than I have.
Since there are people pushing the boundaries of ELR shooting beyond what most people can imagine, let alone believe, and since some of the people pushing said boundaries do not enter competitions, video their shooting, photograph their targets and post them on the internet, or care at all what you, I, or anyone else believes, and since many of the people here will not believe anything without seeing photos or video, you are welcome to go on believing that 0.25MOA at 5k is impossible.
I do understand that the ballistic parameters are not the same (or even only 2.5 times as large) at 5k as they are at 2k, but insurmountable? I don't think so.
In 1491, everyone was absolutely certain that the earth was flat. Understandably so, since they were never taught, or shown differently. After one man found that idea to be in error, look what happened.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Augustus, you said that it would be impossible to shoot a consistent .25 MOA group at 5k, and you also said that the fact that no pictures were posted in response to attempts to shoot consistent .25 MOA groups at 100 yards showed that it was very difficult. It may be very difficult, but there are at least 2 people who I know can shoot .25 MOA groups at 100 yards just about whenever they want, provided conditions are calm. One of them is Mike R. at Tac Ops. Therefore, whether consistent .25 MOA groups can be achieved at 100 yards is known. It was not that long ago that nobody was shooting such groups, let alone guaranteeing such accuracy from the rifles they built. Mike does both. So now, you cannot use that as evidence of the impossibility of shooting .25 MOA groups at 5k yards.
Every major advancement of anything in the history of mankind has been preceded by people saying that it could not be done. It might be more accurate for you to say that you cannot see how it could be done. Unless, of course, you are consistent at predicting the future, in which case I want to talk to you about investments.
Augustus, you said that it would be impossible to shoot a consistent .25 MOA group at 5k, and you also said that the fact that no pictures were posted in response to attempts to shoot consistent .25 MOA groups at 100 yards showed that it was very difficult. It may be very difficult, but there are at least 2 people who I know can shoot .25 MOA groups at 100 yards just about whenever they want, provided conditions are calm. One of them is Mike R. at Tac Ops. Therefore, whether consistent .25 MOA groups can be achieved at 100 yards is known. It was not that long ago that nobody was shooting such groups, let alone guaranteeing such accuracy from the rifles they built. Mike does both. So now, you cannot use that as evidence of the impossibility of shooting .25 MOA groups at 5k yards.
Every major advancement of anything in the history of mankind has been preceded by people saying that it could not be done. It might be more accurate for you to say that you cannot see how it could be done. Unless, of course, you are consistent at predicting the future, in which case I want to talk to you about investments.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
TH,
Mike R is mostly using smaller caliber rifles on bench with a rest, not in a field on a bipod with a very large magnum across 5k meters.
You said it yourself, if the conditions are right, at 100 yards. Try waiting on those calm conditions 500X times farther, do that and let us know how it works out for you.
You want to compare, ask Mike to guarantee a .25 MOA group at 1000 yards with the same rifle. See how receptive he is to that. Heck, give you some space, 800m cause he is using a 168gr 308.
Just saying.
TH,
Mike R is mostly using smaller caliber rifles on bench with a rest, not in a field on a bipod with a very large magnum across 5k meters.
You said it yourself, if the conditions are right, at 100 yards. Try waiting on those calm conditions 500X times farther, do that and let us know how it works out for you.
You want to compare, ask Mike to guarantee a .25 MOA group at 1000 yards with the same rifle. See how receptive he is to that. Heck, give you some space, 800m cause he is using a 168gr 308.
Just saying.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
LL, I do not dispute any of that, though I will say that 100 yards no longer has to be the distance at which .25 MOA groups are consistently shot (again, when conditions are right). I am simply saying that progress continues to be made, and distances extended, and targets shrunk. Sometimes, sooner or later, progress produces results that nobody could previously imagine.
Just saying.
BTW, 5k is 50 times further than 100 yards, not 500.
LL, I do not dispute any of that, though I will say that 100 yards no longer has to be the distance at which .25 MOA groups are consistently shot (again, when conditions are right). I am simply saying that progress continues to be made, and distances extended, and targets shrunk. Sometimes, sooner or later, progress produces results that nobody could previously imagine.
Just saying.
BTW, 5k is 50 times further than 100 yards, not 500.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Typo aside, (dam iPad) looked even changed damn to dam. Lol
The conditions can never be considered right that far, there is no way to force mother nature to submit to your will without a guidance system. Getting the ammo to play along will be a hard enough issue, trying to force the world to stop spinning and the wind to never blow is a fantasy. How many points along the bullets path do you envision doping, 3, 5, 10, both laterally and vertically.
Again, good luck with that, call me when you install guidance and a powered assist.
Typo aside, (dam iPad) looked even changed damn to dam. Lol
The conditions can never be considered right that far, there is no way to force mother nature to submit to your will without a guidance system. Getting the ammo to play along will be a hard enough issue, trying to force the world to stop spinning and the wind to never blow is a fantasy. How many points along the bullets path do you envision doping, 3, 5, 10, both laterally and vertically.
Again, good luck with that, call me when you install guidance and a powered assist.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I am not the one doing that shooting, I was merely saying it was possible, so for the answers to those questions, you might want to talk to Saojao.
If I was doing that shooting, given that, when I test a newly setup rifle/scope, I test at least at 100, 300, and 600 yards, with full cognizance of the fact that the curve will change around 1100-1300 yards, and again at as yet untested distances, at least with the 7mmRUM I have shot a number of times, I would expect to have to dope at least 30-50 points, both laterally and vertically, assuming I could find consistent enough environmental conditions to gather such data. It might take me a few months, or even longer, to do so.
Also, as far as I am aware, Saojao is not talking at this point about hitting a specific point on a target at 5k, but rather about hoped-for group size at 5k. Since the group can be anywhere on the target, the problem may not be as difficult as envisioned. All one would need is a large enough target, and a condition set that stays unchanged for a long enough time period to shoot the group. One would not necessarily even need to know exactly what those conditions were, at the time the group was shot, in order to shoot it. That is far less difficult than trying for a specific condition set, and trying to hit a specific point on the target, before that condition set changes. I would assume that, if the accuracy level is attained, work would then begin on doping enough points to be able to actually hit specific smaller targets.
I am not the one doing that shooting, I was merely saying it was possible, so for the answers to those questions, you might want to talk to Saojao.
If I was doing that shooting, given that, when I test a newly setup rifle/scope, I test at least at 100, 300, and 600 yards, with full cognizance of the fact that the curve will change around 1100-1300 yards, and again at as yet untested distances, at least with the 7mmRUM I have shot a number of times, I would expect to have to dope at least 30-50 points, both laterally and vertically, assuming I could find consistent enough environmental conditions to gather such data. It might take me a few months, or even longer, to do so.
Also, as far as I am aware, Saojao is not talking at this point about hitting a specific point on a target at 5k, but rather about hoped-for group size at 5k. Since the group can be anywhere on the target, the problem may not be as difficult as envisioned. All one would need is a large enough target, and a condition set that stays unchanged for a long enough time period to shoot the group. One would not necessarily even need to know exactly what those conditions were, at the time the group was shot, in order to shoot it. That is far less difficult than trying for a specific condition set, and trying to hit a specific point on the target, before that condition set changes. I would assume that, if the accuracy level is attained, work would then begin on doping enough points to be able to actually hit specific smaller targets.
Similar threads
