Best home defense is no suppressor? / zero distance

TurboTrout

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I was thinking, in an home defense/indoor shoot situation, why use a suppressor?

Theory

I can don and activate my electric pro in no time flat, it sits right next to the weapon, can be default set to boost my normal hearing to like scared deer hearing levels

Now the average intruder is 99% not going to be wearing ear pro, thus in a shoot situation wouldn’t the balance of advantageousness be in my advantage with the sound coming out of a 9.5” 9mm with a brake when I have quality ear pro on and they are sans protection? Kinda like a flash bang type effect??!



Second question, what is the best zero distance for a braced 9.5” barrel 9mm with a RDS, spilt use between steel plates at the range and defense

Thanks
 

MK20

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I would zero at 25 or 50, depending on preference.

The electronic ear pro makes a good choice. Plus, if you shoot someone, your suppressor doesn't go on a trip to the police station for a while.

If you live in a crappy state that would even make a fuss about shooting someone invading your home.
 

roostercogburn98

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I keep my 4.5 inch 9mm sbr zeroed at 50. Suppressor isn’t always for you. What if you have people that live in your house? Maybe a newborn or young kids. Why change giving them some kind of hearing damage or recurrent nightmares from a loudish blast.
 

candyx

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    What about the above average intruder .....
     

    PBWalsh

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    Conclusion and overall blast from the shooter’s perspective is still less with a suppressor, even with good earpro.

    Earpro fails sometimes.

    Plus, if you shoot someone, your suppressor doesn't go on a trip to the police station for a while.

    Why would you not take the suppressor off before they show up?
     

    TurboTrout

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    Conclusion and overall blast from the shooter’s perspective is still less with a suppressor, even with good earpro.

    Earpro fails sometimes.



    Why would you not take the suppressor off before they show up?

    I get that with like one of my braked JP 223s, but would this also be a factor with a 9mm to that much of a extent?
     

    Matches Malone

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    The no suppressor home defense is in line with John Lovell’s theory.

    Personally, if I have time to put on ears, I have time to get the family out, including myself. The suppressor is on the rifle and the pistol gets me to the rifle as I don’t sleep with it like I’m in the field. The suppressor is so I don’t flash or deafen myself.

    Early detection increases validation to my point. Unless you just want to kill someone to do it. In which case, have fun with that.
     

    TurboTrout

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    I would zero at 25 or 50, depending on preference.

    The electronic ear pro makes a good choice. Plus, if you shoot someone, your suppressor doesn't go on a trip to the police station for a while.

    If you live in a crappy state that would even make a fuss about shooting someone invading your home.

    Some of the guys on a MP/SP5 page we’re saying 25, figured length and caliber wise a MP5 is closer to what I have 🤷‍♂️

    What’s the advantage of 25 vs 50?
     

    TurboTrout

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    The no suppressor home defense is in line with John Lovell’s theory.

    Personally, if I have time to put on ears, I have time to get the family out, including myself. The suppressor is on the rifle and the pistol gets me to the rifle as I don’t sleep with it like I’m in the field. The suppressor is so I don’t flash or deafen myself.

    Early detection increases validation to my point. Unless you just want to kill someone to do it. In which case, have fun with that.

    I’m in good shape, but no way I could even get myself out of the house in 1-2 seconds flat, also good chance if in the bedroom and the hostile comes in the easiest path of entry from the outside, I’d likely converge when trying to evacuate me and mine

    Having family barricade in with one of my other weapons seems a better choice than trying to maneuver the house, especially with a tactical albatross in tow, ie a small child or hysterical woman


    Guess the biggest factor so far is concussion for me, perhaps I could do a little test at the range and see
     

    Baron85

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    Suppressor for sure. Even with ear pro guns are loud, especially indoors. Also the change of a suppressor failing are significantly less than the odds of you forgetting to put your ear pro on, turn them on as well as all your family doing the same when there is panic. Suppressor is a sure fire bet.

    And as an intruder. Being blinded by a bright light and yelled at to freeze should be enough to stop 90+% of basic home intruders. If that doesn’t work a 147hp will. The idea of using the flash and bang of un suppressed fire seems silly to me. The only possible way that would work is

    A- you missed

    B- he has a friend. If the sight of his buddy getting smoked doesn’t change his mind engage
     

    PBWalsh

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    @TurboTrout

    I shot a few outlaw style IDPA matches indoors. I made sure I wore double ear pro after the first shooter went. Guns outside are loud, guns inside are much louder. Supersonic projectiles are going to be loud.

    Even a K length suppressor will be better than an unsuppressed 9mm.

    If something occurs, unscrew the can and put it away before police show up. No one needs to know what was on the gun upon firing.
     
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    kthomas

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    Having to shoot in a confined and enclosed space?

    I'll take the suppressor 10 out of 10 times.

    Thankfully the odds of you ever having to do such a thing are extremely low. But if it did ever happen, being suppressed will probably be of benefit.

    Curious to hear what the people who do/have done this stuff for a living think. Pretty sure my friend who has done more door kicking then anyone else I know (40+ deployments) has a suppressed 300 BO for this prupose.
     

    Baron85

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    It won’t until a few second later. Just like hunting. But the blast will ruin your hearing so if there is more than one intruder you won’t be able to hear them. You also won’t be able to hear your wife or kids yelling at you to see what’s going on. Your situational awareness will be diminished as well as your cognitive abilities most likely lower due to the concusion
     

    candyx

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    It won’t until a few second later. Just like hunting. But the blast will ruin your hearing so if there is more than one intruder you won’t be able to hear them. You also won’t be able to hear your wife or kids yelling at you to see what’s going on. Your situational awareness will be diminished as well as your cognitive abilities most likely lower due to the concusion
    So your telling me I should have my ear pro on my night stand not in the range bag in the closet.
     
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    pineoak

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    So your telling me I should have my ear pro on my night stand not in the range bag in the closet.
    No, we're telling you to have a dedicated set on the night stand in addition to the one in the range bag.

    Some people keep eye pro there as well if there is time.

    And battle belts, chest rigs, plates, armor... don't forget the always necessary Crye Precision Combat Pants with the built in knee pads

    (I like sling bags with big open pockets like for shotgun shells, but for pistol mags or rifle mags because my underwear won't hold up anything if I stuff it in)
     

    kthomas

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    No, we're telling you to have a dedicated set on the night stand in addition to the one in the range bag.

    Some people keep eye pro there as well if there is time.

    And battle belts, chest rigs, plates, armor... don't forget the always necessary Crye Precision Combat Pants with the built in knee pads

    (I like sling bags with big open pockets like for shotgun shells, but for pistol mags or rifle mags because my underwear won't hold up anything if I stuff it in)

    I would bet during the heat of the moment you wouldn't even think to grab ear pro, even if it's right next to you.
     

    pineoak

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    Along the lines of thinking that my friend has "I use a revolver with a short snubbie barrel because it'll be harder to disarm me if the bad guy grabs the muzzle or barrel"

    a suppressor does add length and provides a longer surface area to lever the muzzle away from him at close range; yeah, yeah he wouldn't get that close...

    Not my logic, but figured I'd share.
     

    black5.3

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    Kinda playing devils advocate here but what if the intruder is already in your house and the sound of them snatching a tv or computer or whatever off the wall is what woke you up and they are just one room over. Granted, a good alarm system, dog, strong and locked doors will help prevent this scenario but just throwing it out there.

    Screw the ear pro and all the other distractions, it’s going to be me in my undies, and my glock with a x300u on it closing distance and engaging whatever might be in my house or just outside my door/window before they have another second to advance.
     

    Lucreau

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    It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind and don’t need any validation from others to own a suppressor. Some do, and some don’t. If you don’t, cool. Last thing I want to do when I hear my door kicked in is fuck around with ear pro from a dead sleep, then grab my primary to engage. I can promise you it won’t be 1-2 seconds flat to put those on and turn them on.
     

    TurboTrout

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    It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind and don’t need any validation from others to own a suppressor. Some do, and some don’t. If you don’t, cool. Last thing I want to do when I hear my door kicked in is fuck around with ear pro from a dead sleep, then grab my primary to engage. I can promise you it won’t be 1-2 seconds flat to put those on and turn them on.

    Nah, just weighing options, but true I am not seeking validation, just information
     

    Matches Malone

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    I’m in good shape, but no way I could even get myself out of the house in 1-2 seconds flat, also good chance if in the bedroom and the hostile comes in the easiest path of entry from the outside, I’d likely converge when trying to evacuate me and mine

    Having family barricade in with one of my other weapons seems a better choice than trying to maneuver the house, especially with a tactical albatross in tow, ie a small child or hysterical woman


    Guess the biggest factor so far is concussion for me, perhaps I could do a little test at the range and see
    Well there’s a few difference in what we are talking about.

    -I don’t have ears by me and the likelihood of being by them when something goes down is extremely low, unless caught by early detection. So, to your point, to avoid moving through the house, it’s easier to evacuate. Just the way the house layout is.
    I’m not gay and have a whole kit tree laying by the side of the bed. Either way, instead off fiddling with that shit, use that time to grab kids and leave.

    Unless your house has no exits without entering into or through the main common spaces. Avoiding 1 man cqb should always be a fore thought whenever possible. Then I can understand barricading. I would think there is a window though….

    -In my experiences in real life and in training, shooting in dark enclosed spaces, structures, houses etc. -A brake with no ears or suppressor…not for me.
     

    kthomas

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    Well there’s a few difference in what we are talking about.

    -I don’t have ears by me and the likelihood of being by them when something goes down is extremely low, unless caught by early detection. So, to your point, to avoid moving through the house, it’s easier to evacuate. Just the way the house layout is.
    I’m not gay and have a whole kit tree laying by the side of the bed. Either way, instead off fiddling with that shit, use that time to grab kids and leave.

    Unless your house has no exits without entering into or through the main common spaces. Avoiding 1 man cqb should always be a fore thought whenever possible. Then I can understand barricading. I would think there is a window though….

    -In my experiences in real life and in training, shooting in dark enclosed spaces, structures, houses etc. -A brake with no ears…not for me.

    I don't know fuck all about CQB. But what I've heard and seen from anyone that is an expert in CQB is that 1 person CQB is an incredibly dangerous situation that should be avoided whenever possible.

    Having a solid egress route seems pretty wise.
     
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    E. Bryant

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    So-called "warned ear response" decreases the effect of loud impulse noises - there is actually an involuntary muscle contraction associated with this. Letting go with a few rounds of centerfire rifle indoors will still suck for all parties involved, and some of those people are my family.
     

    TurboTrout

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    So-called "warned ear response" decreases the effect of loud impulse noises - there is actually an involuntary muscle contraction associated with this. Letting go with a few rounds of centerfire rifle indoors will still suck for all parties involved, and some of those people are my family.

    Center fire pistol (9mm)?
     

    david walter

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    We have a big house with a long ass hallway, but nothing near 25 yards, let alone 50. Mrs has a CZ scorpion with a can and red dot sighted at 25 yards.

    Why zero a house gun at 50? Serious question.

    If you think the fight will move outside at some point, an 11.5” 300 BO, or HAMR or 5.56 is your solution. With a can.

    As others have noted, the can is only partially about you.
     

    pineoak

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    I don't know fuck all about CQB. But what I've heard and seen from anyone that is an expert in CQB is that 1 person CQB is an incredibly dangerous situation that should be avoided whenever possible.

    Having a solid egress route seems pretty wise.
    Not everyone sleeps on the same level. Retreating into a safe room isn't always an option if you have kids in other parts of the house.

    It's 1 person CQB, but it's YOUR home. You should know it, the angles, reflections, etc well.

    Basically like a tank battle, who hears/finds whom first... there is NO cover in a modern house interior for the most part.

    Having egress options/routes is always wise.
     

    lash

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    Some of the guys on a MP/SP5 page we’re saying 25, figured length and caliber wise a MP5 is closer to what I have 🤷‍♂️

    What’s the advantage of 25 vs 50?
    Seriously. At the typical engagement distance in home defense at 7 yards at most, neither makes a fucking difference. You’re still going to be shooting minute of vital organ of your choice. But typically for a short barreled spray and pray, 25 should be adequate.
     
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    gunsnjeeps

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    Haven't done it for 9mm, but for. 45 ACP a 50 yard 6 o'clock bulls eye hold is about 4 inches above line of sight at 25 yards, 6 inches at 50, the bullet crosses at 75 yards, and is about 8 inches low at 100. Center mass is center mass the full distance.
     
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    TurboTrout

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    Seriously. At the typical engagement distance in home defense at 7 yards at most, neither makes a fucking difference. You’re still going to be shooting minute off vital organ of your choice. But typically for a short barreled spray and pray, 25 should be adequate.

    Also be playing with steel at the range with it too

    I don’t have enough money for the level of lawyers to even debate spray and pay in a defense situation as I don’t enjoy qualified immunity, thus I’m personally responsible for all rounds
     
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    FUNCTIONAL

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    Kind of surprised to hear so many people having more than a pistol next to their bed. Only time I ever had a rifle next to me at night was during the blm terrorist riots in a city that was having them. That was suppressed, not for my hearing but to try and leave my wife with enough to take direction if I needed to give it to her and for flash.

    Other than that it's a pistol with rds and tlr7. Only goal is to get the wife and kid and fuck up anyone in the way of that. Everything else can be replaced.
     
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    lash

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    Good. I would hope that you would practice and assumed so. I just wanted to point out that the primary purpose of a 9mm is close quarters. Just choose what you’re comfortable with and get used to it. Know what it does at 7y and at 50y instinctively.

    In the extremely unlikely situation wherein you’ll need to apply this at home, You won’t have to think about anything but point and shoot, because face it, that’s the only level of thinking you’ll be doing at that point anyway.
     
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    TurboTrout

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    Kind of surprised to hear so many people having more than a pistol next to their bed. Only time I ever had a rifle next to me at night was during the blm terrorist riots in a city that was having them. That was suppressed, not for my hearing but to try and leave my wife with enough to take direction if I needed to give it to her and for flash.

    Other than that it's a pistol with rds and tlr7. Only goal is to get the wife and kid and fuck up anyone in the way of that. Everything else can be replaced.

    If it’s in my home and I don’t have to conceal it, why would use a pistol when I have better options right here, pistol is less accurate, less capacity, etc

    And no, everything can’t be replaced, sure the things that are insured will get me a pittance from the insurance company, who will make that money back in jacked up premiums later on
    …it’s my home, my castle, I’m not running away like a scared dog only to watch some shit birds walk everything I worked for out of my home, or watch them burn it down, I also wouldn’t want my family to see me do that, in many ways it would be better if I got hurt defending my home than didn’t get a scratch running from my home 🤷‍♂️

     

    TurboTrout

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    The no suppressor home defense is in line with John Lovell’s theory.

    Personally, if I have time to put on ears, I have time to get the family out, including myself. The suppressor is on the rifle and the pistol gets me to the rifle as I don’t sleep with it like I’m in the field. The suppressor is so I don’t flash or deafen myself.

    Early detection increases validation to my point. Unless you just want to kill someone to do it. In which case, have fun with that.

    Just looked that up, interesting

     
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    FUNCTIONAL

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    If it’s in my home and I don’t have to conceal it, why would use a pistol when I have better options right here, pistol is less accurate, less capacity, etc

    And no, everything can’t be replaced, sure the things that are insured will get me a pittance from the insurance company, who will make that money back in jacked up premiums later on
    …it’s my home, my castle, I’m not running away like a scared dog only to watch some shit birds walk everything I worked for out of my home, or watch them burn it down, I also wouldn’t want my family to see me do that, in many ways it would be better if I got hurt defending my home than didn’t get a scratch running from my home 🤷‍♂️



    Far more mobile with a pistol and easier to handle one handed if I have to carry my kid for any reason. Also never said anything about running away. My wife and my kid come first though and it would be highly unlikely an intruder doesn't know I'm moving around. He's got the choice to get the F out or find out what kind of house he broke into. The way my house is laid out getting to my kid I'm 95% guaranteed to see a body to drop in the process if someone is in there anyway.

    Not saying a rifle is the wrong choice, just didn't realize how many actually have one handy through the night.
     
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    TurboTrout

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    Auditory Exclusion.

    Your body is incredible and wants to live even if you have not excercised the mindset.

    Get a dog before deciding eat pro or suppressor if intruders truly concern you.

    I’m not concerned with intruders the same way I’m not concerned about fire, still have a few handy extinguishers suited to the area they are in
     

    TurboTrout

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    Far more mobile with a pistol and easier to handle one handed if I have to carry my kid for any reason. Also never said anything about running away. My wife and my kid come first though and it would be highly unlikely an intruder doesn't know I'm moving around. He's got the choice to get the F out or find out what kind of house he broke into. The way my house is laid out getting to my kid I'm 95% guaranteed to see a body to drop in the process if someone is in there anyway.

    Not saying a rifle is the wrong choice, just didn't realize how many actually have one handy through the night.

    The last thing I’d want to do would be carrying a small child while armed and going through my home with a intruder somewhere inside
     
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    david walter

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    Or not. If they bring rifles and you bring a handgun, momma and the kids are history.

    Why would you leave your rifles in a safe instead of bedside when the single most important gunfight of your and your family’s lives would be the one in your own home defending everything you love?

    Bringing a pistol to any gunfight where a rifle or shotgun are options is tactically unsound.

    Bringing a handgun, when you have available rifles, to a fight to save your family when the arming status of intruders is unknown is irresponsible.

    “Every fight is a rifle fight. Some people bring fists, some knives or sticks. Some bring handguns or shotguns. But the man who brings and can effectively employ a rifle can stand off and dominate any gunfight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    Kind of surprised to hear so many people having more than a pistol next to their bed. Only time I ever had a rifle next to me at night was during the blm terrorist riots in a city that was having them. That was suppressed, not for my hearing but to try and leave my wife with enough to take direction if I needed to give it to her and for flash.

    Other than that it's a pistol with rds and tlr7. Only goal is to get the wife and kid and fuck up anyone in the way of that. Everything else can be replaced.
     

    M4orturnate

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    Imo the only time a suppressor is not the right answer is a prs match. Even then depending on can, gun, what youre there to accomplish points wise can still be the right call.
     

    Rudy Gonsior

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    Well in classic fashion we’ve descended into the realm of the less than qualified opinions 😅 look is a free country, do whatever you want but I’d urge us all to consider the aspects of the ego at play here.

    Each fight that occurs is unique. No two gunfights are ever the same…BUT you will over time notice trends…BUT to truly understand and interpret, and integrate trends you need context. Context arrives from experience, experience can be personal which while powerful profound is often statistically limited. Other forms of experience come from the institutional or organizational perspective. This is the collective organization of the members individual experiences that will shape and develop a coherent doctrinal outline for the collective, the purpose of which is to enhance the groups abilities to succeed.

    “Strength of the wolf is the pack, the strength of a pack is the wolf”

    Some of you are probably wondering what the I am rambling on about. Let me say it simply:

    Some of the things I am reading in this thread are fuck’en retarded. Comments that lack any grounded perspective other than it’s just been regurgitated over and over and thus have no context. Misplaced priority or concern on nuanced aspects while completely disregarding key principles is another issue.

    That being said, don’t take this personal, this isn’t an attack on anyone, I simply think if we going to have a dialogue that’s somewhat productive rather than just an echo chamber, it needs to start with an honest self assessment. The point of a this discussion (any really) isn’t to “win” the argument but leave with something of value.


    So quick background, personal I have 19ish years of military service, mostly in special operations. Heavy focus on sniper stuff but I cut my teeth as rifleman and assaulter long before that. I currently work for Ridgeline, our primary clients consist of special operation units both US and Foreign as well as others better not mentioned. Our staff is small but robust and includes LE and Mil operators from near every service (sorry Air Force 🤣) as well as other organizations outside of DoD. One of our primary contracts is a Low-Visibly Operator Course focused on small team (1-4 PAX) SUT/CQB in and around vehicles and residential structures with pistol/sub/carbines from concealment.

    Here’s the notes relevant to the original post some additional observations.

    Pistol/Subguns - These suck at winning gunfights when it comes to putting metal on meat. Better that a sharp point stick but a rifle/carbine is a whole magnitude of ballistic effectiveness above a pistol cartridge even with a sub gun. While there are a plethora of circumstances that might allow you to come out on top with a pistol vs a rifle, you won’t always be able to control those BUT you can control what you start with and a rifle is a better option.

    Also I’ve seen A LOT of people shoot pistols over the years and I probably can count on one hand the number of people that are good enough with a pistol for it to be an confidently welded as an effective primary.

    And that’s one of the points of concern here that I keep seeing, that “pistols are for CQB”. No they are NOT a primary weapon system, they are a backup another platform or a compromise for situations such as environments that demand concealment. If you think that rolling single handed with a pistol, while carry a baby in the dead of night against unknown threats is a good idea, you’re fuck’en bananas. The priority is to win this fight so stack the deck in you favor.

    Suppressors - John Lovell already it laid out. VIOLENCE OF ACTION. As a singleton or a small team the psychological factor of unsuppressed fire in the confines of CQC is significant. I see this every time we teach the LVOC. Everyone, even seasoned hitters tend to be like “Goddamn!” when we roll unsuppressed in vehicles or tight rooms. I want everyone involved to be second guessing their decisions, 10.3” has that effect. Obviously amplified hearing protection is a thing, so just do it.