Gunsmithing I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

[GUNZ n AMMO]

I bought this rifle off of another hide member, and I just picked these up today. Besides from all the chips and flaws that I saw (completely separate topic) I started cleaning it a bit as it was filthy (what a shame). I tried to put a couple of drops of HOPPE's #9 BR on the chamber, the area where the action and the barrel meets and where it was threaded to the action. For some reason, as soon as the liquid lands on thread, it just penetrated like the barrel wasn't threaded to the action tightly, so I drop some more HOPPES in it and it just penetrated right through, which never happened to any of my other rifles. I have a savage 12BTCSS in .223, savage 10 XFP (sold it last month) and a custom 6.5CM by J.Stiller and it never happens like this when some liquid gets in the barrel thread. Check out the picture below, is this normal?

AND THE LIQUID DRIPPING DOWN THE BARREL

not just that, I tried dry firing a couple of times and even when I slowly working the action the sear engages and catches on the accu-release. I may have to adjust the trigger pull on this but can it be that the culprit is the trigger having too much wiggle on it. Here's a link to the video: http://youtu.be/NEcPtHD_Efo

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

so thats a savage and they eliminated the barrel nut? your video made me drag my 10FCP out and your trigger moved waaaaay more than mine. pop it out of the stock and take a look at it. maybe a pin is loose or missing. ill have to let a remington guy tell you if that drip down is normal. i dont think it is and i dont want to break out the oils and solvents to test it. and not to impune anyones integrity, but if they didnt disclose any flaws prior to sale, and i mean i have seen guys in threads go out of their way to photograph every single chip, nick and flaw, but if the seller didnt do that, then you may have bought someone elses troubles. did you get any inspection period?

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so thats a savage and they eliminated the barrel nut? your video made me drag my 10FCP out and your trigger moved waaaaay more than mine. pop it out of the stock and take a look at it. maybe a pin is loose or missing. ill have to let a remington guy tell you if that drip down is normal. i dont think it is and i dont want to break out the oils and solvents to test it. and not to impune anyones integrity, but if they didnt disclose any flaws prior to sale, and i mean i have seen guys in threads go out of their way to photograph every single chip, nick and flaw, but if the seller didnt do that, then you may have bought someone elses troubles. did you get any inspection period? </div></div>

The getting the rifle to me part, missing items from what stated on the add is a different story like I mentioned.

Right now I'm trying to focus on the barrel/action and the trigger. The barrel is a bartlein 5R mated with a savage action. The rifle also came with the stock savage accu-trigger and that doesn't wiggle as much as the one on it now. I also check my Savage 12BTCSS and that is the same wiggle as the stock one that this rifle came with, which is minimal. I tripled check everything and all the C-clamp and pieces are there, but it just had that more than NORMAL spaces in between parts that makes it wiggle that much.

I saw the spring to adjust the trigger pull, but I can't access to it as it is blocked by piece of choate stock. I can drill a hole on the choate to have access to the spring to adjust the tension that way, but I don't really want to do that right now until I hear from somebody here (gunsmith or have knowledge) that knows about this issue first.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike LasVegas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw the spring to adjust the trigger pull, but I can't access to it as it is blocked by piece of choate stock. I can drill a hole on the choate to have access to the spring to adjust the tension that way, but I don't really want to do that right now until I hear from somebody here (gunsmith or have knowledge) that knows about this issue first. </div></div>

wait, its blocked? but you had the action out right? i wouldnt think a hole would be needed unless you just want constant access to that adjustment spot. tell ya what, id ask jim at northland shooters supply. maybe just get a rifle basix or SSS comp trigger from brownells or midway. and wait and see what a smith on here or someone familiar with a nutless savage action says about the leaking. if the action had the threads recut and the barrel wasnt done to match, or something along those lines. does the barrel wiggle at all? with the action out of the stops, if you grip the receiver will the barrel shift any?

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike LasVegas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw the spring to adjust the trigger pull, but I can't access to it as it is blocked by piece of choate stock. I can drill a hole on the choate to have access to the spring to adjust the tension that way, but I don't really want to do that right now until I hear from somebody here (gunsmith or have knowledge) that knows about this issue first. </div></div>

wait, its blocked? but you had the action out right? i wouldnt think a hole would be needed unless you just want constant access to that adjustment spot. tell ya what, id ask jim at northland shooters supply. maybe just get a rifle basix or SSS comp trigger from brownells or midway. and wait and see what a smith on here or someone familiar with a nutless savage action says about the leaking. if the action had the threads recut and the barrel wasnt done to match, or something along those lines. does the barrel wiggle at all? with the action out of the stops, if you grip the receiver will the barrel shift any? </div></div>

Ok here's the barrel and the stock. I can run a piece of paper underneath it but barely passes through. If I have a bipod installed on the stock, the barrel is so heavy that it is RESTING on the stock, thus making it a NOT FREE FLOAT BARREL.

OK here, see the thread meets the barrel in the chamber? do you see the dark spot on the bottom, just past the ammo ramp? that's where the HOPPES penetrates like there's a crack there. Picture of the EXTRA STOCK SAVAGE ACCU-TRIGGER. The trigger that is on the rifle now is the SAVAGE TARGET ACCU-TRIGGER

Finally the HIDEN accu-trigger adjustment spring, just underneath that piece of choate where the screw that holds the metal trigger housing.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

Hi solvent can work through threads but if the action is square and the barrel shoulder is also square the solvent should not have weeped through likt that. I am assuming here that the barrel could be tightened more against the shoulder i would have a smith check it out. as for the trigger issue just sdjust the trigger out of the stock and then refit it after it is adjusted correctly. the barrel channel will require relieving or just replace it with a stiffer stock the plastic stocks droop and dont like extra heavy barrels that is just the thing you have to live with with a factory plastic stock.

If you have had other issues with this sale i would get a smith to check the rifle out for you and especialy the tension on the barrel and if they have the guages get the headspace checked at the same time. we would screw the barrel out and check it over as if the action and barrel were painted together after assembly they should have almost sealed together and you should not get any solvent seepage.

The solvent can work its way through any thread and especialy down through the front take down screw in any action but i have never seen any barrel we fitted that had been painted let the solvent wick through like that.

 

[neeley205]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

Did he list the FL smith who did the original work when you bought the rifle? I would probably at least try him and see what he has to say about the rifle. Maybe he can illuminate any specific situations.

 

[eddieharren]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

The front, bottom of the receiver on a Savage is notched for the recoil lug to index into. If no recoil lug is used that could be where the Hoppes is getting through.

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocEd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The front, bottom of the receiver on a Savage is notched for the recoil lug to index into. If no recoil lug is used that could be where the Hoppes is getting through. </div></div>

So this is a good or bad thing? I appreciate everyone clearing this out for me...

 

[m1k3]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

Well, the notch is supposed to be there. As well as a pin or screw in the recoil lug that fits nicely into that notch. Its there to keep the recoil lug from twisting around while you screw the barrel and nut on.

If that screw/pin isn't there then you have a notch where fluid can easily move from one area to another. Even with the screw/pin in place, fluid will still move through there. That's normal.

Can you post a pic of the bottom of the action and recoil lug area?

Those Choate stocks are a little flexible and if the rifle isn't bedded properly then it could rub at the front like you mentioned. Especially with a very heavy barrel.

Mike

 

[m1k3]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

Also forgot, you're typically not supposed to adjust the Accu-trigger while its in the stock. Its not meant to be externally adjustable.

Mike

 

[wadebrown]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

I probably should not be replying as I am not an expert as you asked for, but if I were building a 6.5 Creedmore I would use a recoil lug. Unless I am missing something the recoil lug has not been installed.

wade

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

you know without the nut i didnt really make that connection. i know only my savage. nut and lug. i know the notch as i recall bedding it and masking and waxing it. ive never had a 700 so i was thinking integral lug on this receiver and forgot it was a savage and didnt have one i guess. i knew it looked odd but i thought it was just the missing nut

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

I will do a test fire on Sunday to find out if the seller claimed of .5 MOA or better is true. Then I'll take this to a gunsmith to do some inspection, to be safe. I just don't want to get screwed on this again... I really thought buying a rifle from a snipershide member is easier than this. sigh***

 

[neeley205]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike LasVegas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will do a test fire on Sunday to find out if the seller claimed of .5 MOA or better is true. Then I'll take this to a gunsmith to do some inspection, to be safe. I just don't want to get screwed on this again... I really thought buying a rifle from a snipershide member is easier than this. sigh*** </div></div>

Your case is a rarity around here. Sorry you drew the short straw.

 

[jr81452]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

The recoil lug is there. I can see the part line just in front of the rail. The rifle was just painted after the barrel was installed, so the lug blends into the action. The lug is aftermarket so it may not have an alignment pin.

OP,

You're not going to be able to tell anything useful without removing the action from the stock. First thing I'd do after taking off the stock: put a rag behind the lug on the bottom of the action to cover the alignment hole, then apply the oil as you did before. It is possible that the oil is seeping out of the alignment hole and wicking around the rest of the lug. If oil still comes out at other places after you cover the alignment hole, then you may have a problem.

As for the stock and barrel contacting when using a bipod, you need to bed/re-bed the action. If that stock is the TAC model it looks like, it has an aluminum bar that runs from the forend to the action bedding block. I've never seen one flex much. A short term solution could be to move the bipod back toward the action as far as you can. Did you check the barrel clearance before or after you removed the rear action screw? If after, did you reinstall the screw and torque it to 45inlb ? Did you check the torque on the front action screw?

The trigger slop can be rectified with a few spacer washers from ACE.

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

I will re check evrything when I get home tonight.

- there's an alluminum frame that runs underneath the stock, and I may have to remove the stock and remove some choate underneath the barrel to give that barrel and stock atleast a .25" gap in between. The stock wasn't sanded before they applied the paint, so I guess I have sand it down to make it even. What durable paint do you suggest I'll use? Dura-Coat?

- I checked the lugs with my torque screw driver only up to 40"/lbs LOL I will check it again later tonight with your suggestion.

- I have adjusted the trigger tension, so the trigger pull is right around 1.5lb. Your suggestion on fixing the wiggle is excellent. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[GasLight]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

I'm far from an expert and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. But the notch for the recoil lug is at the front of the action, and the solvent would need to travel through roughly 12 threads before reaching the notch. Something doesn't seem right to get immediate penetration like that. I know Remington from the factory uses a sealant aroudn their threads to keep bluing solvents from getting in between and rusting, so there must be some seepage, but I can't imagine it is anything like that. I personally would want to make sure the barrle is tight tight to the action before shooting it, as well as checking the headspace.

If you don't have the equipment to remove the barrel and check things out, a trip to your gunsmith might be a better idea than shooting it first?

As to the stock, I wouldn't spend the money duracoat or cerakoting it. I would save a few extra $$ and put a better stock under it. If you need .25" of clearance around the barrel to prevent contact under bipod loading, I would first look at bedding the barrel channel to give it some rigidity, but even then, it starts to be a lot of work for a plastic stock...

If you like the stock, then bedding the action as suggested above is the first move, then if there is still too much flex, bedding the barrel channel.

This really sucks and sorry to hear you are unhappy. I guess my first order of business would be to talk with the person who sold it to you and try to get it worked out. If you decide on keeping it, my first concern would be to make sure the barrel to action threads fit properly.

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This really sucks and sorry to hear you are unhappy. I guess my first order of business would be to talk with the person who sold it to you and try to get it worked out. </div></div>
I'm guessing this one won't end well if you look at how much of a mess this transaction was.

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This really sucks and sorry to hear you are unhappy. I guess my first order of business would be to talk with the person who sold it to you and try to get it worked out. </div></div>

That's one of the main issues, communication with the seller after I paid him is horrible. I am really trying hard to make this work, as I have agreed to buy it, and he spent some cash to send it to me. But I was expecting that when I get it, I should be having fun shooting it, not worrying about my fingers and or face getting blown up. I sent him a message two days ago and yesterday about the missing die and scope rings and still nothing... Sorry guys I didn't get much time last night to mess around with it, I'll try again tonight...

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

First work-up load with 123gr AMAX. I will do some 140gr AMAX work up load next week. Seems to be shooting fine with less than half MOA shot groups. I found where the liquid is sipping through.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

all of us savage owners have the raceways milled like that in our receivers. no one else has a leak from there do they? glad it shoots

 

[ChameleonCamo]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

hey mike i'm in vegas if you want to borrow my savage wrench, also have a couple barrels and a action that are all separate if you want to compare and look at.

 

[BBeyer]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

You stated that the barrel is so heavy that it hits the stock at the muzzle end of the stock. THe threads at the reciever barrel junction should be solid enough that the barrel will not move at all depending on the attitude of the gun. For a better word, does the barrel "sag" at all when held in the horizontal.

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChameleonCamo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey mike i'm in vegas if you want to borrow my savage wrench, also have a couple barrels and a action that are all separate if you want to compare and look at. </div></div>

Been very busy lately and i won't have any break until two weeks from now. Which side of town you live by? I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[customshooter]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

that is not normal.... if the faces were true, it would seal completely... the threads ma also be loose and sloppy... Its a shitty job...

 

[customshooter]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

wait...youre going to test fire it first and then go to a gunsmith for safety?...you got it backwards...

 

[vance]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

I'm curious what ever happened with this deal? It looks to me like you got a shooter. If the barrel threads were sloppy or not properly tightened to the action then I don't think it would be shooting groups like that. Even with the heaviest of barrels you shouldn't get more than .002 or .003 flex in the forend of the Choate stock when on the bi-pod. If you only have a couple thousanths clearance then you're not properly free-floated. Let us know what happened.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Re: I NEED SOME EXPERT OPINION

Mike,

That barrel looks like a #7 contour, not a stock Savage contour. If it is a #7 contour, you will definately need to open it up a bit. I'm not sure what contour the Choate is set up for but I would bet it is for a Rem or Savage varmint contour.

Also, gettting a perfect metal-to-metal fit that seals off petroleum based chemicals is nearly impossible. That's why aircraft manufacturers apply sealants to all fuel tank fasteners regardless whether they are interference fit or not. The sealant/cosmoline looking stuff that Remington puts on their factory barrels also keeps cleaning solvents and oils out of the bedding. That's why solvent runs down the front action screw and into the bedding (and sometimes into the floorplate area)when you are cleaning it. One more reason to use a good bore guide.

I'm still not sure why you put the oil on the barrel to receiver joint to begin with. What were you looking for? By your pictures it looked like it ran down to the bottom of the barrel and out the front of the stock. I would expect it to do just that.

Please give us an update on what you found. And if you really hate the Choate stock, I may be persuaded to take it off your hands.

Take care,
Mike