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Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

P

pdogsbeware

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 10, 2011
4
2
36
Colorado/Minnesota
I admit I'm not the most serious shooter, I shoot around 2000rds a year at prairie dogs out to 500yds in good conditions and that's it. I don't claim to know it all and that's why I'm asking a serious question...why don't you guys like savage rifles? I always hear jokes about them (salvage, etc) not quite to the point of bashing, but close. Can some of you tell me what you have against them?
Now my opinion might be biased, I shoot a savage, and love it! Big thing for me is that I don't have to have a gunsmith do my work for me. If I want a new bolt handle...I change it. New barrel? Twenty minutes in my garage and its changed out, including bolt face. And don't give me the accuracy crap, tell it to the dead prairie dogs scattered around ND. I've been to friendly comps (not the serious tactical competitions, I'll give you that), and I hit the same targets as guys with $2000 custom built rifles. No it's not my abilities, I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm not even a good shooter.
I'm really curious though, from what I've seen they are equal, so why the hate? It's not even a ford or chevy thing as you all still respect Sako, AI, Rem, even if you shoot something different. But few or you seem to respect savage...or does it just upset you that people can spend a third the money and still keep up with your fancy guns? I'm all for quality, I'm not a cheap ass. But I am rational...If I can do the same thing at less price...why spend more? The only reason I can think of is proven platforms. I know the Rem700 and such are proven, so I understand if thats the reason you like them..but still no reason to dislike savage so much.

Now please don't get mad at me, I'm not trying to upset anyone or start anything! That was not my intention! Treat me instead as someone to convert, I seriously would like to be informed on this. As I said I don't know much at all about this stuff, there very well might be some obvious reason I don't know about, so enlighten me! Quite possibly maybe I've only happened to have read posts from the few people who really don't like them. If that's the case tell me I'm an idiot and to shut up and I will! You have my word, I will admit defeat if you can tell me a SOLID, PROVEN reason why savage deserves the jokes. I really am here to learn.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

1.) 2k rounds a year is probably more than most people shoot on this forum....lol
2.) Those guys who keep saying salvage....ya most of them are savage shooters and thats all they shoot. So they make jokes about their own rifles.
3.) The personality of some of the savage shooters is the larger problem. Think the old Civic/Neon vs True Performance built cars best describes the mind set.
4.) I'd be willing to bet the savage won't hold up to the same conditions that a AI or TRG are built to handle. Hell most custom rem's won't either.

Btw a question like this is begging for a flame war.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

People around here generally do like Savage, particularly rifles like the model 10s and 12s. There are plenty of threads on them here, and I don't recall seeing much at all in the way of bashing them.

But, they're priced similarly to the Remington 700, which as you seem to know has a ton more aftermarket parts and support, and is every bit as accurate. You'll see a lot more discussion about the 700 for this reason alone.

Sako's TRG, AI's systems, and many customs are built more durably, with more accuracy, and using generally better materials, so get the respect they deserve here. Still, any flaw in these will be pointed out - you need only look at threads on the Sako TRG stocks breaking, Premier scopes failing, etc. to see that a high price tag doesn't buy immunity from being called out for design problems.

So, don't worry about those who thumb their noses because Savage also makes $250 .22s, and have fun with it - most of us know better.

 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Ask DFOOSKING what he think of savages he ordered a 204 in there right bolt left eject that shot 6" at 100yds sent it back and it was so out of spec they sent him a brand new gun. When it came back it shot great but when I order a new gun shoot it one week then have to sent it back and miss out on prairie dog season? I shoot around a lot of friends that mainly shoot Savages and for the most part they do fine but they seem to be the first ones to have problems out of all of use that shoot.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.)
Btw a question like this is begging for a flame war. </div></div>

Yep, these are the kind of threads that feeling get hurt in. In the interests of avoiding just that, I'll try and answer your question in a civil manner.
I too shoot a Savage, and on more than many occasions my Savage and I have out shot guns three times in cost. My 10FCP .308 is one of my fave's, some of my best shots of all times have come from a perfect connection between us.
That said, I also have some custom Remingtons, I like them all. I think that those who are down on Savages are just those who look down their nose at anything less than what they have, or they are people who own Savages and recognize that they are shooting a less expensive rifle, and dont mind picking on themselves a bit.
I really dont care or see the point to this argument anyways, I know I couldn't shoot any better than I do now even if I spent AI or TRG money. Holes can only get so small, the only difference is the durabilty/class that comes with the high $$$$ rifles.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

My first precision rifle was a Savage 10 in Mc Millan stock, which I should have bedded, but didn't know at the time, I sold it in search of the "Best rifle".

It has more to do with Savage's history, they have kicked out a lot of inexpensive rifles, and that is the first thing people think of.
Next it has to do with afermarket parts, although it is changing more and more every day, 10 years ago there was very few choices avialable and the Rem 700 was king.
Being able to change your own barrels and bolt heads is a great idea. I think more and more people will shoot these in the future as time goes on and minds start to change.
I have considered doing a Savage build, and it would be with their Long range Precision action ( I like the smaller action window, similar to the TRG).
Keep shooting them and be proud, the rest of us will catch up in a few years.
SScott
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beretta989</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All a Savage can do is equal a Remington, if that and never pass it. </div></div>

That's a bet I'd never take, I've seen it proved wrong way too many times.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3.) The personality of some of the savage shooters is the larger problem. Think the old Civic/Neon vs True Performance built cars best describes the mind set.
</div></div>
Great analogy! I can understand that. And I know Sakos and the like are tough as nails. I suppose I should have specified for the 'average man's needs', i.e. not invading a country or dragging it through a field ha
Thanks everyone, I do feel like an idiot now haha So it turns out I either read the few posts of the true dislikers, or I didn't catch the jokes they were making of their own rifles. I'm glad everyone was civil about this, I appreciate it.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I think a lot of it has to do with like SunnysideScott said. Savages history.
The company was founded on building the lever action '99. Which many don't know but smokes other lever action designs so bad it's pitiful. But, the lever action does not say "ACCURACY!" like a good bolt action, and now we've found out the AR platform.

Savage has built outstanding bolt action rifles through the years starting with the post-WWI rights to the Mauser action, the Model 1920. But costs happen so they cheapen stuff up. When you cheapen stuff up it again makes the rifle look like it isn't accurate. My dad has an old model 340 in .222 Rem. With reloads that thing is one accurate rifle.

When it comes to the cheap look about Savage I've always said, "They put the money in the rifle where it needs to be, any money {profit} left over they paid someone to make it look ugly."

But, that's the truth. What they do with rifles has always been accurate, if not very appealing to the eye.

A lot of the things we do to rifles today, they at least attempt to do on a mass production scale.

They've changed a lot since Coburn took over in 79(?) and for the better I think. The tactical style of rifle isn't just a fad, so it's not going away. Savage has invested heavily in that side of the market. And I think really giving Remington and Winchester (FN) a big time run for their money.

Anyways, it's one of those things you grew not liking something, it takes a big turn around mentally to start liking them.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I don't like the cheap looking stamped steel bolt release. Not as much aftermarket support with them either. Many of them shoot damn good though.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

All you gays can hate away. I have a Savage 10th with over 4000 rounds on the factory barrel that shoots hands down as good or better than any custom in my safe. The action has been trued, and it's in a Manner's T3 stock, but the barrel remains OEM Savage.

As far as how well they hold up, well it's never had one FTF in over 4000 rounds so even though it doesn't tote the prestige of a huge price tag, I'd say it's doing OK.

Now I will admit....

The action is looser than a $2 whore, and when you rack it, it feels awful. The safety has never worked, but I've never bothered to try to figure out why, or fix it either. But the damn thing just shoots, and shoots every time. I have a couple top 3 finishes with it at local matches, and it shoots FGMM and my VLD handloads into one hole at 100y.

Anyone who cares to partake in it's awesomeness can come get it and we'll go to the range down from my house and I'll provide proof.

Prolly the biggest reason people around here don't like them, is because they have not been awarded a military contract....
grin.gif
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I have owned several different rifles, from several different manufacturers, including Remington. I have done my very best to be that shooter that makes a Savage look GREAT!! However, it is the rifle itself that made me love Savage rifles.

My Remington 700 was a basic MOA shooter most of the time. To ever get down to .75", I had to dump Federal Gold through it all the time. I just couldn't afford to do that, and I ended up selling it and a few other guns to get into an FN-SPR.

The very best 5-shot group from the FN finally got me under .5", but again, it was only with Federal Gold. Ultimately, I had more money tied up in just the FN-SPR rifle alone, than I had wrapped up in my 10FPLE complete!! My old .308 10FPLE (hated to sell it) absolutely shot like a freakin laser. My best 5-shot group from it was .302", and it was shot with cheap shooting Ultramax.

So long story short, I absolutely LOVE Savage rifles, and I will own one from now on. So the love is there, but I don't even bash the other rifles that I worked my ass off to get them shooting. Savage rifles just work for me, and that is where I am happy!!

DK
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Its more than likely your rifle was not made by G.A.Precision which translates to "you are poor and cant afford to shoot in their $3-5K matches". I had one of these custom made jobs with the Schmidt and Bender PM II's on it linked by the badger ordinance hardware. My savage 10 FLP holds sub MOA all day long with sloppily assembled loads, so I scrapped the GAP, good riddance because it never was sub MOA.

I asked Marty from badger personally one day if he would make some bottom metal for savage I was wanting to put together and he basically said they did not make anything for savage, because if you were too cheap to buy a remmington, you could not afford to put anything on a savage. Its about that simple with thier little click.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jetfire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its more than likely your rifle was not made by G.A.Precision which translates to "you are poor and cant afford to shoot in their $3-5K matches. I had one of these custom made jobs with the Schmidt and Bender PM II's on it linked by the badger ordinance hardware. My savage 10 FLP hold sub MOA all day long with sloppily assembled loads. I asked Marty from badger personally one day if he would make some bottom metal for savage I was wanting to put together and he basically said they did not make anything for savage, because if you were too cheap to buy a remmington, you could not afford to put anything on a savage. Its about that simple with thier little click. </div></div>

Interesting first post.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

The Salvage rifle is just plain Ugly!

Done! Next question!

41
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jetfire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its more than likely your rifle was not made by G.A.Precision which translates to "you are poor and cant afford to shoot in their $3-5K matches". I had one of these custom made jobs with the Schmidt and Bender PM II's on it linked by the badger ordinance hardware. My savage 10 FLP holds sub MOA all day long with sloppily assembled loads, so I scrapped the GAP, good riddance because it never was sub MOA.

I asked Marty from badger personally one day if he would make some bottom metal for savage I was wanting to put together and he basically said they did not make anything for savage, because if you were too cheap to buy a remmington, you could not afford to put anything on a savage. Its about that simple with thier little click. </div></div>

My Hi-point rifle shoots better than yours and Marty said he wont make bottom metal for it.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

He wanted an answer to his question, I only gave my perspective based on personal experience. You could learn a thing or two about advocacy and inquiry. I don't see how your reply to my post relates to the primary question unless you own a GAP, or feel the need to feed the click's ego through protective pandering.

The point is, if you can afford to run with the boys competing with the GAP's topped with Nightforce, Uni's, and SMB's...they could care less.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jetfire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its more than likely your rifle was not made by G.A.Precision which translates to "you are poor and cant afford to shoot in their $3-5K matches". I had one of these custom made jobs with the Schmidt and Bender PM II's on it linked by the badger ordinance hardware. My savage 10 FLP holds sub MOA all day long with sloppily assembled loads, so I scrapped the GAP, good riddance because it never was sub MOA.

I asked Marty from badger personally one day if he would make some bottom metal for savage I was wanting to put together and he basically said they did not make anything for savage, because if you were too cheap to buy a remmington, you could not afford to put anything on a savage. Its about that simple with thier little click. </div></div>

WTF ever.... So you'll have me believe that George sold you a rifle that would not hold sub moa, and then wouldn't even make it right? Horse shit.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I don't like the way they look. I don't like the way they feel. I don't like the lack of options available for them.

That said, I wouldn't race for pink slips against one either and I don't talk shit about those who shoot them.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jetfire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He wanted an answer to his question, I only gave my perspective based on personal experience. You could learn a thing or two about advocacy and inquiry. I don't see how your reply to my post relates to the primary question unless you own a GAP, or feel the need to feed the click's ego through protective pandering.

The point is, if you can afford to run with the boys competing with the GAP's topped with Nightforce, Uni's, and SMB's...they could care less. </div></div>

I'm really glad you are here to teach.

I agree with JRose calling<span style="text-decoration: line-through"> bullshit</span> horseshit on your previous statement.

For the record I own both, Remington and Savage. Nothing bad to say about either.

 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jetfire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its more than likely your rifle was not made by G.A.Precision which translates to "you are poor and cant afford to shoot in their $3-5K matches". I had one of these custom made jobs with the Schmidt and Bender PM II's on it linked by the badger ordinance hardware. My savage 10 FLP holds sub MOA all day long with sloppily assembled loads, so I scrapped the GAP, good riddance because it never was sub MOA.

I asked Marty from badger personally one day if he would make some bottom metal for savage I was wanting to put together and he basically said they did not make anything for savage, because if you were too cheap to buy a remmington, you could not afford to put anything on a savage. Its about that simple with thier little click. </div></div>


Damn it smells like bullshit in here.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

It is what it is. Savage is a great rifle. Get a BBL wrench with the 10 model with some headspace toolage and you can have a 260, 7mm-08, .308, and 243. I have owned most of the standard makes and models with savage being my favorite due to the accuracy. The actions are little sloppy, but no big complaints here. It spanks my winchester stealth, remington SPS varmint, and other rifles. Its a good rifle to start and finish with. You may move up to a custome made rifle someday and then it will be your turn to bash those starting out with savages.

As you can see by the retaliation in the post following mine, the vampires appear out of the darkness to protect "THE CLICK".

Yes, I 'did' have a GAP sub MOA.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jetfire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is what it is. Savage is a great rifle. Get a BBL wrench with the 10 model with some headspace toolage and you can have a 260, 7mm-08, .308, and 243. I have owned most of the standard makes and models with savage being my favorite due to the accuracy. The actions are little sloppy, but no big complaints here. It spanks my winchester stealth, remington SPS varmint, and other rifles. Its a good rifle to start and finish with. You may move up to a custome made rifle someday and then it will be your turn to bash those starting out with savages.

As you can see by the retaliation in the post following mine, the vampires appear out of the darkness to protect "THE CLICK".

Yes, I 'did' have a GAP sub MOA. </div></div>

Dude that ain't protecting "THE CLICK", its calling bullshit on a new poster slamming one of the top gunsmiths with their first post. That would have happen to just about any gunsmith like

TACOPS, APA, Beanland, SAC, Blackops, etc

But I guess using your reasoning...any custom smith is "THE CLICK"


And thanks for reinforcing my "Civic/Neon" owner comparison.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

First, I would like to echo the love for the model 99. I was in the market for an accurate factory rifle 2 years ago. After all the research and mental debating I bought a Savage 110 FCP-K. I did so because they seemed to offer more features for less money. I think that Savage is squeezing out as much accuracy as they can in a mass produced firearm.

I will say that Savage is kind of shooting themselves in the foot as far as aftermarket support. Every year or so it seems that they change or tweak their actions, making stock and bottom metal manufacturers frustrated. That said, they are only second to Remington in aftermarket goodies as far as I can see.

I really don't think that Savage gets as much hate as perceived. Look at Ruger, Winchester and even Weatherby. These companies make nice firearms but aren't usually in precision rifle discussion, and have less aftermarket support.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Jetfire, I think the responce you are getting is a result of how hard George has worked for his outstanding reputation. Then a new guy (to here) shows up talking down his rifle.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I own both a remington and a savage and have no complaints against either one except the savage has limited bottom metal options compared to the remington.

that said I do plan on buying at least 2 more savage rifles and a remington style custom action.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Jetfire,
Thank you for pointing out to us your Ad Hominom fallacy concerning GAP rifles vs. your Savage shooter.

Savages shoot, no question. I have personally seen the Savage JRose refers to first hand. It's a great shooter.

But your idiotic claim that a Savage is equal to or better than a custom stick, or a purpose made factory rifle shows nothing but your bitter resentment and your naivity.

 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

So, being you are a new poster Jetfire, I guess you missed where this site, back in 2001 did a little project called the "Ghost Dancer"

We basically through this site, bought 5 Savage rifle, the 10fp in 260 right when discontinued the caliber offering. They actually sold us the rifle for $250 each so we could do as much as possible with them.

"The click" as you called it, got McMillan to offer after market stocks, mine for instance had the first MCM A4 for a savage, Lothar Walther from GA did the barrels, we had Sharpshooter supplied triggers, I think badger made our bases, and in the end we all shot the Spirit of America F Class competition in Raton with the rifles. Overall the project was a big success, and the rifles did very well, but the lack of aftermarket parts, and people willing to work on them made it no better than going the same route with a Remington or even a custom action in some cases.

After it was done, I sent my 260 Savage to GAP they dressed it up, removed the barrel nut and changed the caliber to a 6mmBR after which I retired the rifle.

When we did this it brought so much attention that Savage took notice, enough to want to use the information but not enough to want to support the site. For about 3 years following each time a new marketing person was hired at Savage and they saw the attention, they would inquire, then just as quickly when asked to lend any type of support to the members here. (and we're not talking money) They always refused. After this project we tried talking to them at SHOT Show several times, but they refused to meet with us, and when I did manage to get in front of the VP I had dealt with when I bought the rifles, he always acted as if he didn't know what i was talking about. Cold shoulder would have been welcome.

So we are not anti-savage, we started out trying to be pro savage, however they turned their back.

As far as the "click" well hard to argue with the proven track record GAP exhibits. when you produce as many custom sticks a year you will always find one or two that need to be adjusted because one reason or another. I have rifles from pretty much everyone and this common with all of them. Yep GAP has never let this site or it's members down. Hard to debate that... as wel you will always find someone who want to buck the trend. They hate simply because everyone else doesn't, shows they are not followers. If you look you can see where we tried supporting other custom makers in big ways, and most have found it hard to match GAP performance, in both quality and delivery. If you had an issue, sorry, am sure it was an isolated issue, and I know GAP stands behind their work. If you didn't have an issue and just didn't like something about it, sorry about that too... sucks to be you. Clearly.

Cheers,
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Jetfire - was it a GAP bolt gun or semi auto?

As for the rest of it - Phylo said it well.

I'd rather see the conversation move to the way the bolt locks up in comparison to some of the other offerings out there. Saying it is ugly is irreverent. There are only two things that count - accuracy and reliabilty. When the folks on the Savsge production line have had their 8 hours and a strong cup of Joe, they are accurate and there is little question about it. As for reliability, I can not help but think if there were more 3rd party vendors making the same widgets and gizmos that are made for Remington, Savage
would be a stronger brand.

Now, last time I checked Savage was using button pulled barrels, as opposed to Remington which uses hammer forged. And some one is going to have to help me out
here (Greg?) Savage uses a semi floating lock up for the lugs. While I have read an article or two on the lock up differences and read why it was not favored - it seems to be accurate.

Be nice to see this move toward a teaching thread instead of "it doesn't scream
cool guy b/c of of the moniker and they have no MIL contracts".

Good luck
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Im not a hater by any means, but Savage has been a bit short in the customer support department for me. I have had a few issues with their rifles and have ran into a brick wall each time. The first was with an accutrigger where the adjusting spring fell out of a rifle that was 2 or 3 weeks old. I contacted them and wanted a new spring and they refused to send or sell me one. They made me send the rifle back to them, not to figure out what may of happened b/c I asked but to install a spring I was completely capiable of doing. I paied for shipping. (and this was on there most expensive rifle at the time, a 12bvss-s 2002 time frame) The other big one was on a 10fp Mcmillan one of the first to be released. The bore had a step in it about 1" form the muzzle and it shot like crap and coppered very bad from that spot forward. I measured the step to be about 0.015" larger than the rest of the bore using slugs and also pin guages. I called Savage and sent all the data I had recorded with exact measurments and even used a paint pin to mark the outside of the barrel to show them where it was. This rifle was inspected took about a month during which time I called to check up on it so no one would "overlook" the problem and was always told it was in line to be inspected and the person I was talking to was unable to tell me when it would be looked at. Well one day I came home from work and found a package and there was my rifle, I thought good its been repaired. I removed it from the box and looked down the barrel and there was the same step. I read the report that came with the rifle and it said the rifle was inspected and found to meet specs. That was it no mention of the info I had provided them and my envelop of data was missing. I called Savage the next day to find out WTF, and they were only able to tell me the rifle was in specs.

So long story short that was the LAST Savage product I will ever buy. If a + or - 0.015" bore is with in specs then Ill proably pass.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I've shot in competitions against guys with every brand rifle known to man. I've taken my "inferior" stevens (budget savage) and beat remington's, badgers, GAPs, Sako's, Tikka's and AIs. Its as simple as this any rifle can be made accurate with enough money. And it's more about the indian than the arrow, or bow. Everyone wants to talk smack about Savage's but no one can ignore the fact that they provide outstanding accuracy for the price tag. And for those that say that a Savage would never surpass a Remington obviously hasn't been to many competitions.

Good Luck,
Merritt
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

My buddy in high school days had a Toyota Supra that would put 750+ HP to the wheels. Only car that could touch him was a beefed up 5.0 that looked like shit. Everyone gave that guy hell because of his Mustang but it did the job for a lot less that every other car that ran around that area. Same concept with Savage rifles. People hate but the fact of the matter is they will shoot as good as any other rifle that is owned on this forum. That being said most of what you will get out of a rifle comes from who is behind it. There are some guys that could get behind a Savage and outshoot others with 5+ thousand dollar rigs. Period! I have seen it first hand. I will stick with Savage rifles and actions until I feel as though my skills have outgrown them. But from what I have seen that will not happen anytime soon if it ever does at all. My 10FP will shoot sub .5 moa 5 shot groups, I have no desire or need to spend anymore money chasing better accuracy! I will however continue to play with different chamberings to maximize the results of high BC projectiles. But that's the only change I see in my future. I will say that like many others when I first got into LR shooting I went through a lengthy debate over Savage and Remington and I am definitely happy I chose Savage!
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Do I own a Savage? No. Would I own a Savage? If the mood suits me I have a couple models in mind. Have I shot Savage rifles including competition? Absolutely. I don't care for the aftermarket support. I don't care for the Accutugger. I don't like the fit or finish. Are they accurate? Some of them are very accurate right out of the box but I have had 2 Rugers and several Remingtons that were just as accurate. I have had one Ruger and one Remington that were dogs. I will speculate a weeks salary that if I owned as many Savages as I had Remingtons I would have found a similar ratio of dogs. The Target action Savages in 6BR have a reputation being very accurate but here is where the rub comes. To my knowledge Remington has not produced a factory rifle in 6BR. Had they done so I would be willing again to wager money that there would be similar results to the Savage, too close to call I expect.
I too believe there is serious cliquish (it is clique gentlemen, not click) behavior but slanted to the Savage camp. Fanboys that attribute legendary status, bested only by Thor's hammer, to the Savage brand. Bone stock Savages besting all comers fielding super stock custom rigs, sending them home with their tails tucked. I will not offer to shoot pinks for my custom rifle but that does not mean I think there are any Svages out of the box that will outshoot it chambered for the same caliber. Comparing a $1000 Savage chambered in 6BR to a Remington SPS in 308Win is not a fair comparison but is often the example in mind when the pissing contests start. Someone once used this analogy in another thread: "...its like saying the Chevette is better than the Mustang GT because Chevrolet makes the Corvette." I am sure if you think about that you can figure out a time and place where a Savage owner has insisted that their $350 Savage was better than any bone stock Remington 700.
My problem is not with Savage rifles. My problem lies with the "clique" of fanboys that elevate them to legendary status. I think the fanboys have a small bit of "remmy" envy or in the broader sense "class envy". I think that has come to the surface a bit in this thread. I am not a man of great means but when I spend money I look at money spent on mediocrity to be wasted money.
If you like Savages buy Savages. I think they are a solid rifle and perfectly acceptable for many shooters. If I was going to shoot prairie dogs and shoot thousands of rounds a summer from one rifle I would probably like a quick change barrel myself. Right now I simply have no particular use for a Savage.
Recently there was a thread that spoke of some 1/4 MOA groups from a Savage, too bad he actually posted the pics somewhere else where they were easily found. Although a couple bullets did get within 1/4 MOA the total group was at least 1MOA, imagine that.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

Pointing to an individual situation or incident really doesn't tell the whole picture, saying, I have done this, or I know someone who has done that, with their rifle regardless of the make is really easy to do. We can fill volumes with tales of 1 off situations where someone with less overcame all odds and beat those with more. In fact it's one of Hollywoods favorite subjects.

The problem is, a Savage is not as versatile as a Remington. Overall there is less there to work with, from smiths building them, to manufacturers supporting them. That is the bottom line why you see less love for them overall. Are they capable, well clearly that answer is yes, but with a lack of options the short term savings are quickly eclipsed by diminished long term prospects. It's great starter rifle, but quickly falls down if you want to build something that retains its value over time. The money saved early hurts it, especially once you start to wrench on it, the options are less and the money spent is roughly the same.

As a barreled action they are fine, the stock hurt it as clearly the lack of quality was / is immediately apparent. So even if you saved $250 buying the Savage over the Remington, you know you have to invest in a new stock so that money is quickly spent.

Individually, they work for a lot of people and there is nothing wrong with that. But as some have said, in this game, especially the Tactical one, when you can't point to military use, that will hurt your reputation. Its one of the first things a company will try to get and Savage has not been represented in this way like Remington has. They are starting to make inroad in competition, the F Class guys are using them, but honestly a good barrel on pretty much any action with a good shooter behind it will show positive results so it's kind of a false metric to use. Like the example listed above, a good caliber with a good aftermarket barrel and the results put points on the board. However if I do the same with a Remington, Howa, RPA, Tikka Etc, would anyone really expect anything any different ? Not really. Points in competition are almost always shooter, barrel, bullets... the action not nearly as much as those and really even the stock & bedding will add more points to it. So... individual results will always vary.

Savages are great for the hobbyist, no question, but if that hobbyist turns into an enthusiast, the Savage will quickly fall to the wayside. Simple facts played out all the time and reinforced with numbers to prove it.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I love my Salvage 10PC and will probably never sell it. I actually just ordered a McM A5 for it. I agree with LowLight that aftermarket options are limited and it ultimately costs just as much as a remington in the end.

I do think that the savages lack a certain "refinement" quality that others have and yeah that bothers me a little bit. But, they do shoot great.

Keeping and open mind I just bought a SPS Tactical to play with so soon I'll get to compare the two side by side for myself. [shrugs]
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've shot in competitions against guys with every brand rifle known to man. I've taken my "inferior" stevens (budget savage) and beat remington's, badgers, GAPs, Sako's, Tikka's and AIs. Its as simple as this any rifle can be made accurate with enough money. And it's more about the indian than the arrow, or bow. Everyone wants to talk smack about Savage's but no one can ignore the fact that they provide outstanding accuracy for the price tag. And for those that say that a Savage would never surpass a Remington obviously hasn't been to many competitions.

Good Luck,
Merritt </div></div>
I have witnessed on several occasions at the public range guys with the high dollar rifles talking smack and then getting their ass handed to them by a guy with a Savage.
Of course any idiot with money can buy a custom rifle, but that doesn't mean he knows how to shoot it.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I have to agree with pretty much all that was said. I have 5 Savages and 1 Stevens. Where I was heading is that all of them are more accurate then I am and probably will always be.The Savages shoot sub MOA's at 100 and the same for the Stevens. I had a Remington but had to part with it years ago it also shot netter then I could on fact I would bet for most of us out here are rifle far out way our capabilities as shooters. A good rifle will just help the better shooters do all that much better. Nothing magic about any of it. Some folks just more natural ability then others. I remember what an old paramedic told me move no one was ever born a medic guess would be that applies to shooters the more you work at it the better you will become hopefully but not always true. SO which ever rifle floats your boat is the one for you and it goes for me nut there has to be that one or more person that has to see just how much shit they can stir.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

About the QC problems around 2008, I bought two 10 FPs in '08, .223 and .308. Neither one would accept a scope base - the threaded holes wouldn't fit #6 or #8, or any other screws. But one phone call later I had pre-paid shipping labels back to the factory for repair. If only they had put decent stocks on them at the same time .....
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I was considering a Savage 10FCP McMillan - until I got my hands on one. The bolt felt awful, and I'm just not going to lay down a grand on a rifle that feels like it's built with the precision of an SKS.

Kind of like looking at a new Mustang vs. a Camaro. If it took 2 hands and a hard pull to open the Mustang's door, I'd probably start wondering about the quality of the rest of the vehicle.


 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apparently, they had a quality control problem around 2008.

https://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279272 </div></div>

This thread is actually about a Marlin 17HMR but the link to the Savage TR smoothbore is contained in the thread.
In their defense the rimfires are not made in the USA by Savage. The rimfire Savage can be in no way shape form or fashion compared with the centerfires, I think this is what sparked the Chevette,GT,Corvette analogy. I have seen people use the success of the centerfires to argue in favor of the rimfire Savage. Once again we see the same old story and again we see a great gun at a great price with little to no aftermarket support and results that are quite frankly over embellished by enthusiastic fans.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

my most accurate rifle is a savage as of now. and it's box stock, except for a bolt knob. Look, there will always be those "idiots" that are brand loyal and will start fights. Usually they are not true enthusiasts and don't have the money to go out and try different flavors. It worked for grandpa so it must be perfect and everything else isn't.
I, like many others here, own a lot of different brands. And I, like many others, love em all for different reasons. Don't ever let the nay sayers get on yer nerves.
Shooting has always been about the shooter, few can match the performance of what they shoot. I am a decent shot, but my cousin makes me look like a newbie with my own rifles (sometimes). I just grin and bear it. jmo
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was considering a Savage 10FCP McMillan - until I got my hands on one. The bolt felt awful, and I'm just not going to lay down a grand on a rifle that feels like it's built with the precision of an SKS.

Kind of like looking at a new Mustang vs. a Camaro. If it took 2 hands and a hard pull to open the Mustang's door, I'd probably start wondering about the quality of the rest of the vehicle.


</div></div>

i have that very rifle. mine felt gritty when i got it. i cleaned and oiled the whole thing and then polished the bolt with 600 paper and at this point its like glass. ive never racked the bolt on a remmy so i cant say if this is better than that, but i can say its better than it was out of the box. if you ever get to kansas, look me up, ill let you shoot it
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

When my pd started their sniper program a few decades ago they started with savage and were supposedly never happy with them. Switched to 700PSS and those things are still in service.

When I went to sniper school it was mostly remingtons with a few others mixed in. One savage rifle was in the class and it was a brand new gun. The guy with the savage was having trouble with accuracy at first and then the gun had a complete failure and he had to borrow a personal owned rem 700 of another officer to complete the course. Given this is just one rifle, but it sure didn't help the reputation with the guys in the course.

The market is full of guns that are great for punching paper and hunting with and there is nothing wrong with that. There may be some great savages out there that you would trust lives to, but that hasn't been my experience with them. (though I've only been around a handful of savages).

With all the custom rifles you see on this site though, you should not expect alot of love for any mid level rifle from any manufacturer.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, being you are a new poster Jetfire, I guess you missed where this site, back in 2001 did a little project called the "Ghost Dancer"

We basically through this site, bought 5 Savage rifle, the 10fp in 260 right when discontinued the caliber offering. They actually sold us the rifle for $250 each so we could do as much as possible with them.

"The click" as you called it, got McMillan to offer after market stocks, mine for instance had the first MCM A4 for a savage, Lothar Walther from GA did the barrels, we had Sharpshooter supplied triggers, I think badger made our bases, and in the end we all shot the Spirit of America F Class competition in Raton with the rifles. Overall the project was a big success, and the rifles did very well, but the lack of aftermarket parts, and people willing to work on them made it no better than going the same route with a Remington or even a custom action in some cases.

After it was done, I sent my 260 Savage to GAP they dressed it up, removed the barrel nut and changed the caliber to a 6mmBR after which I retired the rifle.

When we did this it brought so much attention that Savage took notice, enough to want to use the information but not enough to want to support the site. For about 3 years following each time a new marketing person was hired at Savage and they saw the attention, they would inquire, then just as quickly when asked to lend any type of support to the members here. (and we're not talking money) They always refused. After this project we tried talking to them at SHOT Show several times, but they refused to meet with us, and when I did manage to get in front of the VP I had dealt with when I bought the rifles, he always acted as if he didn't know what i was talking about. Cold shoulder would have been welcome.

So we are not anti-savage, we started out trying to be pro savage, however they turned their back.

As far as the "click" well hard to argue with the proven track record GAP exhibits. when you produce as many custom sticks a year you will always find one or two that need to be adjusted because one reason or another. I have rifles from pretty much everyone and this common with all of them. Yep GAP has never let this site or it's members down. Hard to debate that... as wel you will always find someone who want to buck the trend. They hate simply because everyone else doesn't, shows they are not followers. If you look you can see where we tried supporting other custom makers in big ways, and most have found it hard to match GAP performance, in both quality and delivery. If you had an issue, sorry, am sure it was an isolated issue, and I know GAP stands behind their work. If you didn't have an issue and just didn't like something about it, sorry about that too... sucks to be you. Clearly.

Cheers, </div></div>

That story about 'Ghost Dancer' actually says a lot to me as to why a strong number of those that were around don't like them. Now, I understand the reticence to deal with them.

I wasn't here back then either. I joined the site in '07 to find out more about U.S. Optics.

I'll say their marketing of a lot of the better options, i.e. stocks, precision action. Has sold them a lot of frontline rifles, but it certainly isn't helping when they keep fixing what ain't broke by changing the feed system/screw pattern.

That said, all four of my Savage bolt rifles (the '99 is too old to qualify) will shoot sub-MOA.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I haven't read all the posts, just don't have time right now so forgive me if I duplicate what someone has already written.

After selling guns for a number of years I can say there are only a few reasons.

1. Bragging rights. Some that purchase these will never use a firearm such as AI in the conditions it was intended for and just want to show off what you don't have.

2. Those that need to have something that will hold up to thousands of rounds and need the durability of something like AI.

there is the illusion that Savage isn't very durable or accurate...not so. They can be extremely accurate and just as durable as any sub 1k gun. They're just not pretty.

That's about it.

When I ran a gun shop we took a number of guns to the range for testing. They were Browning, Remington, Winchester, Parker Hale, Savage. All shot well but the Savage was actually doing better than the rest. They shot so good that they guy I was shooting with, sold his browning rifles and purchased Savage.

Sure the action is a little gritty and trigger not that great but that's easily fixed.
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I like Savage because I can easily modify them myself in my basement, changing barrels, calibers, stocks, bolt knobs, etc. in a matter of minutes. In that regard, its like the SOPMOD of bolt-action rifles.

I believe whoever made the distinction between hobbyist & enthusiast was the most accurate. I'd love to have a TRG or AI or GAP topped with a S&B, and if I sell the rest of my rifles and 'eat ramen' long enough, I could probably afford that.

But at this point, I won't do that.

So I play with my cobbled up Savages and my Lee reloading equipment and see if I can get a rifle that shoots better than I can. Right now, I believe the accuracy of both my Savages exceed my own skill level, and the relatively low price of entry vs. a high-end rifle or custom Remmy means I've got plenty of money left over for practice.

If and when I believe my equipment is holding me back, I'll explore other options. Until then, I'm gonna run what I brung...
 
Re: Why don't you guys like Savage? Serious question.

I think the things that hurt Savage the most are:
1. There just aren't as many aftermarket parts available for Savage as there are for Remington style actions.
2. Savages don't hold their resale value like Remington, and Winchester do. Of course, Sako and Accuracy International hold up better on resale than Savage, Winchester, or Remington.
3. The "style" is just a bit different than what most folks are used to.
4. Savage hasn't established itself in the durability, or field use department like Remington has. Although Savage rifles shoot well, they also need the reputation for holding up well and operating under adverse conditions. I'm just not familiar with any testing, data, or even anecdotal stories of Savage rifles holding up under adverse conditions.

Savage rifles shoot as well as any others. The Savage team that went to Bisley showed how well stock rifles will shoot. I have personally spoken with a member of the Savage team, and he says that they shoot box stock Savage rifles. There just wouldn't be the advertising advantage of a Savage team shooting rifles that aren't available to the general public. So, they shoot box stock rifles. That is quite a good endorsement for the accuracy of the rifles.
 
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