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Is Boston using a polite term for civilian sort of Martial law?

It appears that people WERE "made" do to things against their will

Police perform house-to-house raids in Watertown MA ripping innocent families from their homes - YouTube

Unless of course being forcibly marched out of your house at gunpoint with your hands above your head is "willing"
The video clearly shows many things that are very wrong, including one of the armed people grabbing a homeowners hands and forcing them up because he didn't apparently keep his hands up long enough to suit them as they were marching him out of his house at gunpoint.

I'd have more to say but it is kind of pointless, those that understand the implications will recognize what they are seeing, the sheep & the neo-Praetorians will be of the same opinion still.

I agree without context this video looks very bad. How about multiple arrest warrants for persons living at that household. There are many videos out there also showing the process by which the searches were conducted. That includes homeowners staying in their homes while the search was carried out.

I personally would not allow such a search and agree with some here that my reaction may have ended up on the evening news.

I think the real "sheep" are those wearing wolves clothing to make themselves seem bad ass. They are just being led around by their nose ring from one conspiracy theory to the next. Don't worry, those folks will eventually be rescued/saved by well armed common sense thinking American patriots. The founding fathers had their radical left and right to deal with and the winners were the ones that used common sense. Oh wait, that was a publication by original patriot Thomas Paine.
 
I agree without context this video looks very bad. How about multiple arrest warrants for persons living at that household. There are many videos out there also showing the process by which the searches were conducted. That includes homeowners staying in their homes while the search was carried out.

I personally would not allow such a search and agree with some here that my reaction may have ended up on the evening news.

I think the real "sheep" are those wearing wolves clothing to make themselves seem bad ass. They are just being led around by their nose ring from one conspiracy theory to the next. Don't worry, those folks will eventually be rescued/saved by well armed common sense thinking American patriots. The founding fathers had their radical left and right to deal with and the winners were the ones that used common sense. Oh wait, that was a publication by original patriot Thomas Paine.

Im not so sure about tinhat conspiracy theories, but with Katrina, and this, not to mention the Grisham video from Temple Tx, how anyone could reasonably deny that the police now believe that they are above and or exempt from the constitution, is beyond me. Part of me just wants to go into the bathroom and throw up in sadness and part of me wants to take a different course of action.
 
Or look at it this way, if you want to invest the time and money you'll get a pretty penny from the police department after the lawsuit.

+1 On That!
Whose gonna pay to repair or replace that guys bullet riddled swiss cheese of a boat? Looked like a big expensive rig. Also the dozens of homes and property with bullet damage. On one interview a couple talked about how rounds were hitting their house and one round came in and hit their tv. Someone mentioned above about no collateral damage???? I would team up with my insurance company and sue, sue,sue.
 
I realize that the Military isn't doing the searching in Boston. But somehow, telling citizens that they can't be on the streets and have to stay home, seems to be sort of like the police are declaring a sort of police style martial law. Anyone on the street could be threatened with arrest for interfering with a police investigation. I gotta be missing something...at least I sure hope I am.

I want the guy/guys caught as much as the next person, but telling citizens to stay off the street on a city wide basis is alot different than putting a cordon around a block or two to do a search.

I think that the LE officials that made this call may not make the same decision in the future.

I think back to the Columbine, Colorado school shooting. When local law enforcement arrived on the scene they wanted to cordon off the high school first to "contain" the threat. Prevent the kids from leaving and lock the school down.

Screw that IMO. The local law enforcement personnel should have entered the building ASAP and engaged the active shooter on sight.Killed him ASAP to prevent further danger to anyone else. Thats why you have LE. Thats why you sign up, to serve and PROTECT.

AFAIK the procedure has been changed to send LE to enter the building as soon as possible. Body armor on not, SWAT or not. Engage the shooter ASAP. I was pissed when I saw LE personnel shepherding children away from the school with their hands raised when the shooter was still in the school, still running around.

The situation in Boston is different and there will be a review of the concept of "locking down" an entire city. Keep in mind that the intent of these bombers was to kill more innocent people. To spread more terror. More fear.

Those who believe that any infringement of civil liberty is a conspiracy to limit all future freedoms. That the government, LE, is constantly trying to limit freedom. Should look at changed LE procedures subsequent to Columbine.

See story below. Don't everybody throw me in the same boat and having the same opinions of the lawyers and their views below. IMO there is a time and place to comply with the requests, delays on my time and freedoms. For a greater common interest.

I agree with your basic premise and question though. Question authority when its oppressive. Question authority when its decision making is arbitrary.

Was Boston Actually on Lockdown?
By Nate RawlingsApril 19, 201323

Kristin Sullivan woke at 1 a.m. Friday to the sound of dozens of police cars careening past her home on the border of Cambridge and Watertown in Massachusetts. “We are all jumpy after everything that happened at the Boston Marathon,” Sullivan said. “When the first suspect was apprehended, it was only a mile away from our house — right near the local hardware store.”

That suspect was Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who was killed in Watertown after a firefight with police. His brother Dzhokhar, the other main suspect in the bombings, escaped, setting off what Governor Deval Patrick called “a massive manhunt.” In his announcement Friday morning, Patrick said “we are asking people to shelter in place.” Life, for the time being, would have to be lived at home and under siege.

By early Friday morning, the streets of Watertown and Cambridge were deserted, and life in Boston, a major American city, had ground to a standstill. Throughout the day, the media described residents complying with a “lockdown order,” but in reality the governor’s security measure was a request.

(PHOTOS: Ghost Town: Users Share Photos of Boston on Lockdown)

“The lockdown is really voluntary, to be honest with you,” says Scott Silliman, emeritus director of the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke Law School. “The governor said he wants to use sheltering in place. Sheltering in place is a practice normally used if you’re dealing with a pandemic, where you’re telling people, ‘You may have been exposed and we want you to stay exactly where you are so we can isolate everything and we’ll come to you.’”

The “shelter in place” request is legally different from a state of emergency, which Patrick declared earlier this year as winter storm Nemo descended on the Bay State. Patrick imposed a travel ban, threatening a penalty of up to a year in prison and a large fine if people were found on the roads. Massachusetts suffered very few fatalities during the storm.

When it came to keeping the public off the streets on Friday, an order, it seems, wasn’t needed. “When the governor suggested in light of last night’s events that we have an armed subject on the loose who is very dangerous, who has committed murder, I believe the citizens of the commonwealth, in the hopes of helping law enforcement, voluntarily stayed off the streets,” Massachusetts State Trooper Todd Nolan told TIME. “This is a request that the public stay inside and they are adhering to it. There has been no law mentioned or any idea that if you went outside you’d be arrested.”

Legal experts agree that the request has been effective. “If there’s a person running around with explosives in a major population center, it wouldn’t be that surprising that the response of authorities would be to ask people to not be outside,” says David Barron, a professor of public law at Harvard Law School. The heightened risk to the public, given the violence that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is already alleged to have inflicted, made officials feel the shelter in place request was necessary, but such measures might not be the standard response to every future terrorism manhunt. “If the idea is somehow that the model for how to respond–when there’s any kind of suspect on the loose related to terrorism, they’ll be telling a place to be completely shut down–that seems not at all likely,” Barron says.

Even if Patrick had felt an order was necessary, or if the situation continues, the Massachusetts state constitution empowers Patrick to take steps to ensure the public’s safety. “A state’s chief executive has ample inherent power to prevent carnage,” Harvard Law School professor and constitutional expert Laurence Tribe told TIME in an email. All steps that Patrick has taken so far, Tribe explained, appear to fully comply with the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments.

The shelter in place order is far from the first time the government has requested the public remain at home for their safety. Silliman points to Toronto’s use of a major quarantine during the 2003 SARS epidemic as one example. Mayors and governors often rely on mandatory evacuations to keep people from harm’s way with impending natural disasters, and curfews are a tool to help contain unrest.

(MORE: Live Updates: Marathon Bomber Manhunt Shuts Down Boston After Overnight Shootouts)

Governments have also resorted to creative methods of keeping law and order in turbulent times. In early April 1968, just after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., Boston officials feared a race riot would engulf the city. City Councilman Tom Atkins had the idea that they could televise a James Brown concert, scheduled for the day after King’s assassination, and keep the city’s youth at home watching the concert on TV. When James balked at performing if the concert was televised and fewer people attended, Boston Mayor Kevin White dipped into the city’s coffers to guarantee Brown’s take of a sold out show.

But orders and creative solutions weren’t necessary in Boston on Friday. As the manhunt continued, people waited anxiously inside their homes. Though Watertown’s residents are no doubt relieved to be safe, some wonder how long Boston can continue in the heightened security state. “My fear is that they don’t find him today,” Jenny Sartori, 43, a professor of Jewish studies at Northeastern University told TIME. “We can’t go on living in lockdown indefinitely. How can you find one person in a whole city?

Swat teams moved block-by-block, knocking on doors and asking people if they had seen anything suspicious. About 11:30 am, a small team of police knocked on the door of James Gillen, a resident of Watertown who lives four blocks from where the shootout happened Thursday. They searched his home and joined up with a larger group, and the 30-officers in their tactical gear, rifles at the ready, patrolled down the street.

As the SWAT officers left Gillen’s home, his two-year-old son asked why they were there. “I had to tell him that the police are looking for a bad guy,” Gillen says. Throughout the long day at home, “he keeps on asking me, ‘Did they get the bad guy?’” The rest of Boston no doubt feels the same way.

Read more: Was Boston Actually on Lockdown? | TIME.com
Was Boston Actually on Lockdown? | TIME.com
 
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As usual, Phil, a well crafted, well balanced post. My one, I wouldn't call it a disagreement, exactly, but divergence of opinion, perhaps is in regard to this quote...

"Those who believe that any infringement of civil liberty is a conspiracy to limit all future freedoms. That the government, LE, is constantly trying to limit freedom.".

Its not so much that I/we (or many of us) think that law enforcement themselves want to limit our freedoms. I do think that there is an element in this world that wants to take all our liberties, but that is not LE as such, and not the point of my post.

Whet we, or at least I, see and believe, is hat "Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.", and that LE being human, ENJOY the feeling of power, and tend to want more and more, and tolerate less and less, any form of challenge to their power. Therein lies the crux of my anger. The police had no right to treat James Gillian, or whoever was the subject of the video, as they did. What do you think would have happened to him had he refused to leave (his own home) and refused the search? Had that been my home I'm not sure how I would have reacted. Hopefully with reserve. Regardless there would be one massive lawsuit following, and from just having watched the conduct of LE there, my trust in :the system" has further eroded.
 
As usual, Phil, a well crafted, well balanced post. My one, I wouldn't call it a disagreement, exactly, but divergence of opinion, perhaps is in regard to this quote...

"Those who believe that any infringement of civil liberty is a conspiracy to limit all future freedoms. That the government, LE, is constantly trying to limit freedom.".

Its not so much that I/we (or many of us) think that law enforcement themselves want to limit our freedoms. I do think that there is an element in this world that wants to take all our liberties, but that is not LE as such, and not the point of my post.

Whet we, or at least I, see and believe, is hat "Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.", and that LE being human, ENJOY the feeling of power, and tend to want more and more, and tolerate less and less, any form of challenge to their power. Therein lies the crux of my anger. The police had no right to treat James Gillian, or whoever was the subject of the video, as they did. What do you think would have happened to him had he refused to leave (his own home) and refused the search? Had that been my home I'm not sure how I would have reacted. Hopefully with reserve. Regardless there would be one massive lawsuit following, and from just having watched the conduct of LE there, my trust in :the system" has further eroded.

I can personally state that for a fact Power corrupts. That even a good conservative government MUST be kicked out of office from time to time because they will be corrupted.

I will also suggest that the people of Boston are not pushovers. That they are the ones responsible for standing up to the Brits and starting the/ a revolution.

If lawsuits, including class action ones, arise from the actions of LE in Boston. So be it. it will further define the rights of citizens and the parameters of action of LE.

I'll use the example of my mother to illustrate my point about LE and criminals. Her favorite idea if she sees the motion detector lights go off in the back yard is grab a framing hammer and go out into the back yard in the middle of the night to see whats going on. She weighs 100 lbs soaking wet and is 85 years old.

I have told her time and time again if she is concerned or worried about someone running around her yard she is to "phone the cops". Thats what they get paid to do. They in fact have nothing better to do. She won't listen. Does LE need unrestricted freedom of action? No.

There are lots of Lawyers in the Boston area.
 
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I couldn't agree more. This is some shit that I would expect to see in Stalinist Russia, the Third Reich or North Korea.

How ironic that on April 18, 1775, Paul Revere set out from Boston to warn the Massachusetts countryside that the Regulars were out. Their goal was to confiscate the munitions stored in the communal powder house at Concord. And now on April 18, 2013, the same city is under martial law from our own government. General Thomas Gage, the military commander of Massachusetts appointed by King George the Third, would be so proud to see Boston once again under siege. And do not think that it was mere coincidence that these dates coincided. It was a strong message from the government to people who believe in the principles of Liberty and have spent their time learning the cultural history of America that the public school system has so strongly fought to erase.

To those of you who think this is an isolated incident, don't worry, it will come to a town near you. This is a test run of what's in store for the rest of the country, and it has been rehearsed for years, which you would know if you had been paying attention and not calling the modern day Paul Reveres a bunch of tin foil hat wearers. You are not safe from these people, and neither is your property. Did you notice how the goon in the video was telling each of those people to keep their hands up and then they got frisked before leaving their own property. The only thing missing from the video above is a cattle wagon and a gas chamber for those people to climb into.

And spare me a bunch of bullshit about how it isn't martial law because "the President didn't declare martial law" or how it isn't martial law because the people were only "asked" to "shelter-in-place" and were still free to risk a walk with the dog or a trip to the store. Those who try to write off what happened in Boston are suffering from what in psychology is referred to as cognitive dissonance. Everybody knows what this was - it was martial law - and intuitively we all know, just as Shakespeare said, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

In summary, the American government just put your fellow Americans under martial law and turned their own homes into prison cells while conducting some of the sloppiest police work in American history. "Well, they got the bad guy, didn't they!" some will exclaim, but I reply "At what cost?" Is it worth your Liberty, any iota of it, to keep you safe? Would you rather live in a cage, where no external threat could harm you, than deal with the inconveniences of attending your Liberty as a responsible and self-governing individual? You are only safe in that comfortable cage until your owner forgets to feed you.

If you bill yourself as a constitutionalist and vehemently defend your right to be armed, but then condone these grave violations of the 4th and 5th Amendments, what have you won yourself? You have said only that you will support any amount of state power and condone any degree of violation of your neighbor, and you won't object in the least so long as the guns aren't pointed at you. And you have simultaneously endorsed several of the most wicked doctrines, among them that "might makes right" and "the ends justify the means." Congratulations, you are the anti-humanity. How would you feel if your daughter were treated the way the people in that video were treated, evicted from her home, shouted at and frisked when she had done nothing other than "shelter-in-place" out of fear that she would encounter these people if she left her home? How would you feel if it were you?

Every man wants his own Liberty, few will want the same Liberty for others. There is nothing honorable about wanting to snuggle up to the plantation master in the hope that he won't whip you.

Good post. From now on they will do whatever they want to do in a similar situation. Constitution out the window anytime they "deem it" necessary for the greater good which, they also reserve the right to determine relevance.
 
I can't believe this happened!! I'm a Police Officer here in TX and can't believe what happened in Temple either!! I'm always looking for bad guys. Doesnt mean I can just walk into someone's home! I just can't believe it! Looks like its going to get worst before it gets any better!!
 
I don't have a problem with the 'shelter in place' request. These were two committed, armed, capable killers whose principle targets were unarmed (thanks to the retarded laws of MA) citizens. It was sensible to try and deny them more easy targets while also making it easier to find them. The point I like is that the one left alive was discovered by a citizen being vigilant. Perhaps a lesson for the powers that be that in times of crisis when we're ALL at risk the citizens can be looked to for help if they don't mistrust them in the first place.

I haven't viewed the video link yet.

My point is best illustrated by the contributions of citizens in the Texas Bell Tower incident when they fired upon the sniper alongside the police.
 
I haven't viewed the video link yet.

View the link first and then the part where you mention:

The point I like is that the one left alive was discovered by a citizen being vigilant. Perhaps a lesson for the powers that be that in times of crisis when we're ALL at risk the citizens can be looked to for help if they don't mistrust them in the first place.

Then it will suddenly make a ton more sense as you are right on, all their storming around didn't find him, what found him was when people finally got out of their homes, someone noticed something not right and called them back to an area they had already searched before and then they found him.
 
Or look at it this way, if you want to invest the time and money you'll get a pretty penny from the police department after the lawsuit.

If there is one thing this country doesn't need it is another lawsuit. Wouldn't it be nice if the rule of law was maintained because it is the right thing to do, rather than fear of a lawsuit? I know, sounds like I have been taking advantage of that new law in Colorado...
 
View the link first and then the part where you mention:



Then it will suddenly make a ton more sense as you are right on, all their storming around didn't find him, what found him was when people finally got out of their homes, someone noticed something not right and called them back to an area they had already searched before and then they found him.


That home 'invasion' was pretty eye-opening. I'm hoping that they focused on that house as a result of a tip or something rather than that being how they went door to door en masse....

Looking at the big picture, I suppose with this situation one can all to easily fear the '1% doctrine' . What if those two had prepped a poisonous cloud device? What if they had something truly heinous up their sleeve that needed some kind of mass panic to work and keeping people in their homes would be the best way to minimize deaths... what if there was more than one 'cell' and others were waiting to come out and unleash hell...?

I grew up in England when IRA bombs were rife (ironic Boston was a major revenue raising location for them). I lost a dear friend in the July '05 bombings in London, I was working in the City when the IRA exploded the largest terrorist bomb on UK mainland. Never however was there an emergency police presence like this but then, no one feared the IRA would use chemical weapons or such. Just your average nail/shrapnel bomb until the big one and then the car bombs in Inniskillin.
 
What if those two had prepped a poisonous cloud device?

Terrorist Poison gas / biological attack scenarios are usually greatly feared, however while scary, the actual effectiveness of them is not usually better than simpler attacks using proper high explosives. I guess however if you are a Terrorist, the terror is what you are after.

Aum Shinrikyo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These guys were an evil, dedicated bunch of smart people with money, time and facilities. They used their makings quite a few times, but even in pretty much optimal conditions, the results were less successful than if they had spent the time making conventional high explosives and rapid incendiary devices.

Here was a good article about chemical weapons in a military context that also explains a lot of the problems with them:

Chemical weapons are not WMDs ? The Register


The thing about those would be that actually staying home or staying put for a bit till the wind blows or the firemen get a chance to hose things down would actually probably be the best idea.
 
When I read long series of posts like this I can't help but wonder how many members have gotten themselves onto a watch list.
 
Look at it this way at least it eats up resources so in some twisted way you get your taxpayer dollars back :).
 
I don't have a problem with the 'shelter in place' request. These were two committed, armed, capable killers whose principle targets were unarmed (thanks to the retarded laws of MA) citizens. It was sensible to try and deny them more easy targets while also making it easier to find them. The point I like is that the one left alive was discovered by a citizen being vigilant. Perhaps a lesson for the powers that be that in times of crisis when we're ALL at risk the citizens can be looked to for help if they don't mistrust them in the first place.

I haven't viewed the video link yet.

My point is best illustrated by the contributions of citizens in the Texas Bell Tower incident when they fired upon the sniper alongside the police.

Points from your post that made me think.

Regards neighborhood participation. From what I remember about searches on bomb threats the person occupying a space in a building was asked to check their own personal space prior to leaving if there was reason to think it was safe to do so. The people that are familiar with the space would know best if something is awry. That is how douche #2 ended up getting caught. Typical govt. doesnt trust "the people" with guns why should they believe they would do the right thing helping to catch a criminal - yet they did.

In reference to the video. I dont think that was the norm. Having listened to much of the communication that day there were specific incidents that raised the awareness of the search teams - suspicious activity in the house, individuals appearing to monitor the police than ducking away and closing shades when noticed by the PO. I'm unable to pass condemnation upon the entire events of the day viewing this one clip and not knowing the context.

It was an unusual day with unusual circumstances. If this is to occur again I would prefer that the people be adopted in to performing a more active role - not so much walking the streets armed - this would be an identity friend vs foe nightmare - but taking a role in securing their own space. It will never happen because such a thought would go against the "We are from the governement and we are here to help" mentality that is being promoted.
 
When I read long series of posts like this I can't help but wonder how many members have gotten themselves onto a watch list.

Anybody posting on an internet forum having anything to do with guns. or rights, is probably on a watch list somewhere.
 
After watching that link, I gotta say...

Is that a house or a fucking clown car? Jeez, people just kept coming out.

That whole situation seems like a good way to fuck an unliked neighbor.

"911, what's your emergency?"
"Me: Yes ma'am, I saw a suspicious looking guy run through the back yard and into the house at 123 Jihad lane."
"911: We'll be right there."
"Me: Who's coming?"
"911: All of us."
 
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When I read long series of posts like this I can't help but wonder how many members have gotten themselves onto a watch list.
Our country is going down the drain and your worried about being on a list?
That mentality is the problem, don't stand for anything, sway with the wind, die a 1000 deaths. Give up what brave men an woman gave you w/o a peep, way to be thankful to those that paid for every freedom (if any) you have left.

Land of the free and home of the brave? The perception of being free and home of the sheep, who are so easily fooled into giving up their rights without even a whimper! We are fucking doomed with voters like this, and those who sell out their vote for more freebies, so they don't have to work for anything they recieve.
 
Anybody posting on an internet forum having anything to do with guns. or rights, is probably on a watch list somewhere.

Who gives a flat damn? We aren't breaking any law . If "they" are creating a list- whomever "they" are, those Nazi bastards are breaking the Law, not us.
 
Who gives a flat damn? We aren't breaking any law . If "they" are creating a list- whomever "they" are, those Nazi bastards are breaking the Law, not us.

Pretty much my point. It happens, no need, or reason to worry about it.

Although, you could have been less of a dick...
 
Gives me the warm and fuzzy... I gotta tell you.
D9431031-8F53-4E98-BB47-C71000C6DDFC-32142-0000037C10C1FD4A.jpg
 
^^ that

I didnt see any of you 'civilians' out all night looking for armed terrorists...

Unless you MILITARY your a civilian, your just a cop period. thou you may think your more you are not.
Do you guys even have a fitness requirement? most of ya look like running 5yds would be your demise. Only a civilian non combative could be that fat and still be in uniform.

Like most here
the idea of relying on one of you fat boys for my families safety/protection is comical
Still i,m sure all your time is spent harassing folk over their paperwork for their suppressors even off duty

Keep stuffing your faces with dough nuts and hopefully you will never collect that NON contributory pension you think your entitled to.
 
Unless you MILITARY your a civilian, your just a cop period. thou you may think your more you are not.
Do you guys even have a fitness requirement? most of ya look like running 5yds would be your demise. Only a civilian non combative could be that fat and still be in uniform.

Like most here
the idea of relying on one of you fat boys for my families safety/protection is comical
Still i,m sure all your time is spent harassing folk over their paperwork for their suppressors even off duty

Keep stuffing your faces with dough nuts and hopefully you will never collect that NON contributory pension you think your entitled to.

Another ignornat, ill informed, elitist military asshole who thinks that he's above all others because he's an E-3 or above. How about you take a lesson in basic grammar before trying to insult someone douche.
 
I sometimes think that government "mis-steps", or what appear to be errors in judgement are feints, or tests to see how the public will react to erosions of rights, liberties, or otherwise being tread upon by government. I also think that sometimes, those same issues are no more than innocent errors. the difficulty is determining which are simple errors, and which are deliberate, malicious tests to see what they can get away with. a great example was the seizure of firearms following hurricane Katrina.
 
^^ that

I didnt see any of you 'civilians' out all night looking for armed terrorists...

1st off-police officers are "civilians". they can quit any time they feel too much stress.
2nd- you believing that "civilians" are not capable of taking you down in an instant is foolish.

I shoot with a lot of bad motorscooters-the best are non-leo.

So i would watch my butt and remember that without a badge on, playing ninja commando in the local neighborhood may get your ass shot off by some bad ass mofo who has actually been in combat.
 
I sometimes think that government "mis-steps", or what appear to be errors in judgement are feints, or tests to see how the public will react to erosions of rights, liberties, or otherwise being tread upon by government. I also think that sometimes, those same issues are no more than innocent errors. the difficulty is determining which are simple errors, and which are deliberate, malicious tests to see what they can get away with. a great example was the seizure of firearms following hurricane Katrina.

Agreed but not everything is always going to be a test or some sort of secret plot to control the people like some on here love to think. Many times what you have before you is just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
1st off-police officers are "civilians". they can quit any time they feel too much stress.
2nd- you believing that "civilians" are not capable of taking you down in an instant is foolish.

I shoot with a lot of bad motorscooters-the best are non-leo.

So i would watch my butt and remember that without a badge on, playing ninja commando in the local neighborhood may get your ass shot off by some bad ass mofo who has actually been in combat.

Since the term CIVILIAN seems to confuse so many on here and appears to be at the base of some of the discourse, here is the definition of the word as found on several online sources.

ci·vil·ian

[si-vil-yuh
thinsp.png
thinsp.png
n] Show IPA
noun 1.a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.

2. Informal. anyone regarded by members of a profession, interest group, society, etc., as not belonging; nonprofessional; outsider: We need a producer to run the movie studio, not some civilian from the business world.

3. a person versed in or studying Roman or civil law.


adjective 4. of, pertaining to, formed by, or administered by civilians.



Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English: student of civil law < Old French civilien (adj.); see civil, -ian

Related forms an·ti·ci·vil·ian, adjective
non·ci·vil·ian, noun
pro·ci·vil·ian, adjective

Civilians | Define Civilians at Dictionary.com
ci·vil·ian

noun \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\


Definition of CIVILIAN

1
: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2
a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b : outsider 1

civilian adjective

See civilian defined for English-language learners »

See civilian defined for kids »



Civilian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It is just a term used to separate entities usually during mass gatherings. It is not a means to rank people by class like some of you seem to think. I thought that this was commonly known, especially since the media will routinely report events in such fashion. For instance, "there was a massive warehouse fire in downtown bumblefuck today where 7 civilians were injured along with 9 firefighters". It has nothing to do with not being able to quit, stress or hierarchy in life lol.

Please loosen the straps!
 
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Here is a different view of the "Warrantless Search" video:

Boston Globe food editor Sheryl Julian lives in Watertown and while she and her husband, Stephen Meuse, were absorbing all the SWAT team and police activity Friday morning around their neighborhood, suddenly there was a knock at their door.

“The SWAT team knocked on every door,” Julian said. “They came in but they didn’t go through the house. We told them we had been through the basement. They went through the garage, in every bush, the whole team, rifles poised, through every single inch of this neighborhood. And every single inch of our house outside.”

They were very calm, just having a conversation when they came to the door.

“They asked, ‘Have you seen anyone? Have you checked around? Very polite.’”

They were going from door to door.

And then, just as quickly, they were gone.

“It was very quiet.”

But not long after, the activity was back.

“The helicopters are getting closer and closer,” Julian said. “They are over our house. It feels like a helicopter is on our roof.” — Doug Most

When the SWAT team knocks - Boston.com

A couple of relevant questions come to my mind:
Was an arrest warrant in place for scumbag #2?
Were any search warrants in place?
Does either of these matter?

These shed some light on the subject.

Can the police search my home for a bomber?

SWAT teams descended on the Boston suburb of Watertown on Friday morning to conduct a door-to-door search for the Boston Marathon bombing suspect left alive after a convenience store robbery, car chase, and shootout Thursday night. Is it legal for the police to search your house without a warrant?

It can be. Under the Fourth Amendment, a judge issues a warrant if police can demonstrate that a search is “reasonable”—that there is “probable cause” to investigate a house, car, or backyard for evidence. But there are plenty of circumstances under which police can perform searches without invoking probable cause.

If you consent to a police search, officers do not need a warrant to enter your home. If you have a housemate, he or she can allow the police to rummage through common areas, such as the living room or the kitchen, but not private areas, such as your closet or bedroom.
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In exigent circumstances, or emergency situations, police can conduct warrantless searches to protect public safety. This exception to the Fourth Amendment’s probable cause requirement normally addresses situations of “hot pursuit,” in which an escaping suspect is tracked to a private home. But it might also apply to the events unfolding in Boston if further harm or injury might be supposed to occur in the time it takes to secure a warrant. A bomber believed to be armed and planning more violence would almost certainly meet such prerequisites.

Furthermore, police may enter a private residence to provide emergency assistance to an occupant—which may include apprehending a suspected terrorist who also happens to be inside. And if they plan to make an arrest in someone’s home, they can undertake a “protective sweep” of the dwelling first to confirm that no weapons or accomplices are stashed away where they can do damage later.

Should these justifications fail, the police could also just conduct a search that violates the Fourth Amendment, knowing that whatever evidence they turn up might not be admissible in court. If their first priority is securing public safety, such a bargain doesn’t seem too awful.

Bonus Explainer:

What if the cops are searching my house for bombers and they find a brick of cocaine on my coffee table?

You’re in trouble. According to the “plain view” doctrine, if police already have a right to be in your house and they notice evidence of a crime, they are entitled to seize that evidence for use against you in court. Of course, the SWAT teams searching for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev probably have more on their minds right now than illegal drug use.

Explainer thanks Kevin Cole of the University of San Diego School of Law.

Hot Pursuit

A doctrine that provides that the police may enter the premises where they suspect a crime has been committed without a warrant when delay would endanger their lives or the lives of others and lead to the escape of the alleged perpetrator; also sometimes called fresh pursuit.

Countless crime dramas have portrayed police officers in a high-speed chase barking into their radio that they are "in hot pursuit" of a suspect. This popular image says little about the legal rule of hot pursuit. As established by the U.S. Supreme Court, the rule is an important exception to the freedoms guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment. That constitutional provision safeguards citizens against excessive police intrusion into their life and property. Its foremost protection is the Search Warrant, which must be obtained from a judge or magistrate before the police can conduct most searches. Under special circumstances, the rule of hot pursuit gives the police extra powers to enter private property and conduct a search without a warrant. The rule recognizes practical limitations on Fourth Amendment rights in light of the realities of police work, especially in emergencies, but it stops far short of giving the police complete freedom to conduct warrantless searches.

As a powerful deterrent to the abuse of power, the Fourth Amendment is designed to prevent the rise of a police state. The requirement that police officers obtain search warrants prevents Arbitrary violations of freedom, applying equally to federal and state authority. Yet this freedom is not absolute. In the twentieth century, the Supreme Court has carved out a few exceptions to its protections. These exceptions exist under "exigent circumstances": the emergency like demands of specifically defined situations that call for immediate response by the police, who must have Probable Cause to conduct a search. Generally, these are circumstances under which obtaining a search warrant would be impractical—ranging from those requiring officers to frisk suspects for weapons to those requiring officers to stop and search automobiles—as well as when suspects explicitly consent or imply consent to a search.

Hot pursuit is one such exigent circumstance. It usually applies when the police are pursuing a suspected felon into private premises or have probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed on private premises. The Supreme Court stated that "'hot pursuit' means some sort of a chase, but it need not be an extended hue and cry 'in and about the public streets'" (United States v. Santana, 427 U.S. 38, 96 S. Ct. 2406, 49 L. Ed. 2d 300 [1976]). Hot pursuit also applies when the lives of police officers or others are in danger. Thus, the Court has recognized two specific conditions that justify warrantless searches under the rule of hot pursuit:

the need to circumvent the destruction of evidence, and the need to prevent the loss of life or serious injury.

The Supreme Court enunciated the rule of hot pursuit in 1967, in Warden v. Hayden, 387 U.S. 294, 87 S. Ct. 1642, 18 L. Ed. 2d 782. It had used the term before, but in Warden, it explicitly condoned a certain form of this warrantless search. In this case, police officers pursuing a suspected armed robber were told that he had entered a dwelling moments before their arrival. They entered the dwelling, searched it and seized evidence, and then apprehended the suspect in bed. The man alleged in court that the warrantless search of the premises had violated his Fourth Amendment rights. When the case reached the Supreme Court, it disagreed, justifying the search under exigent circumstances.

Since Warden, lower courts have applied the rule to determine whether police officers acted reasonably or unreasonably when conducting a search without obtaining a search warrant. Other cases have permitted warrantless entry and arrest in hot pursuit under different circumstances: when the police saw a suspect standing in her doorway who retreated inside carrying a package that contained marked money from a drug sting (United States v. Santana, 427 U.S. 38, 96 S. Ct. 2406, 49 L. Ed. 2d 300 [1976]); when the police had probable cause to arrest a suspect because he fit the description of an assailant who had threatened others and fled arrest (United States v. Lopez, 989 F.2d 24 (1st Cir. 1993), cert. denied, 510 U.S. 872, 114 S. Ct. 201, 126 L. Ed. 2d 158 [1993]); and when a police officer at the threshold of an apartment viewed a narcotics deal taking place inside (United States v. Sewell, 942 F.2d 1209 [7th Cir. 1991]).

Although hot pursuit expands the powers of the police to conduct warrantless searches, it does so under strict circumstances. Its purpose is grounded in practical necessity; it does not give law officers license to ignore constitutional safeguards. Courts make the final determination of whether a warrantless search is permissible, and they will reject misuses of the rule. One improper use of hot pursuit occurred in O'Brien v. City of Grand Rapids, 23 F.3d 990 (6th Cir. 1994). In this case, police officers pursued a suspect to his house, called for backup, surrounded the residence, and ultimately spent six hours in a standoff without seeking a search warrant. The court held that the suspect could not have fled the scene and that the officers had no fear of destruction of evidence or of a threat to safety. Thus, no exigent circumstances authorized their warrantless search.

Can the Police Search Door to Door Without Warrants?

Heavily armed SWAT teams combed through homes near Boston on Friday in a massive manhunt for one of the Boston Marathon bombing suspects.

But what allows police to search door-to-door for a suspect on the loose without a warrant?

Hours after the FBI released photos and videos of Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, and his brother Dzhokhar, 19, clashes between the suspects and police began, the AP reports.

Tamerlan was killed overnight, but his brother remained on the loose Friday afternoon. Officers went door-to-door in several neighborhoods, looking for Dzhokhar.

Generally speaking, the Fourth Amendment protects residents' privacy by typically requiring police to knock and announce their presence before they can enter people's homes, and get a search warrant before they can conduct a search.

But there's an exception for situations in which there isn't time to get a warrant because of an ongoing emergency. When there are exigent circumstances, or emergency situations, police can lawfully enter, search, or seize a resident's property without a warrant.

The exigent circumstance exception exists for the sake of public safety. Often seen on the show "Cops," the classic exigent situation is when the police are in "hot pursuit" of an escaping suspect who is tracked to a private home.

But another example of an exigent circumstance is when further harm or injury could occur in the time it would take to get a warrant. The exception applies to this case, since Dzhokhar is believed to be armed and dangerous, the AP reports. It's entirely possible that he's planning to cause further injury to people.

Officers are also allowed to enter a home without a warrant to help an occupant in an emergency. That means it would be OK for police to enter a house to apprehend Dzhokhar and help a resident who is possibly being held hostage. In such a situation, the police can also do a protective sweep of a house for weapons and other evidence.

One final note about warrantless door-to-door searches: If police do search your home in an emergency, the "plain view" doctrine generally applies. That means officers can seize any contraband they see in, well, plain view -- and that evidence can then be used against you in court.

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And a view from LE conducting the search from above thread:

If I might provide some insight to how the searches in Watertown were conducted. My team was assisting with security in Boston since a few hours after the bombings, and two of my guys and our Bearcat were on scene in Watertown with-in a few minutes of the shootout. The first few hours were as chaotic as you might think, but by the time the rest of our team was requested and responded (0900), the search was organized and methodical. We, by my count, were tasked with checking a little over a hundred residential structures, most of them being 2-4 family, with some single family and a few with 7-9 apartments in them, so probably near to 150-200 households. Out of those, only 5-6 were not occupied, and we did an exterior check and were able to contact the owners with the help of neighbors.

We drove through Boston on the way up, and everyone was taking the shelter in place order to heart. It wasn't "Not many people out because it's Christmas morning" quiet, it was "Like you see in the movies after the plague hit" quiet. Eerie.

We started out setting up a quick perimeter around each house, contacting the residents, speaking with them, asking them to step out while we checked their house/apartment/basement/garage, etc, and it was taking a long time and tiring the team. everyone was more than happy to give us consent to search, and since they were all watching out the windows as we made our way down the street, the knew we were coming and there were no "Plain view" issues. After a while, we realized that by asking to have everyone inside come to the door and by using our good cop skills, we conducted a quick threshold interview, asking them about their household, and inquiring about their neighbors and the neighborhood, we were able to move forward with our job. If we had any concerns, we asked and were granted permission to search inside. We have never had so many thank yous, or people relieved to see a SWAT team outside their door, than we did Friday.

We were well aware of the circumstances, and the need to tread lightly while staying focused and keeping in mind our mission. One of the news cameras caught one of our guys giving a little boy held in his dads arms a high five as we passed by on their porch, and there is another picture of one of our guys taking a second to pet a huge Irish wolfhound one of the residents had on a leash.

Given the exceptional danger and circumstances, I believe the rational for exigency articulated by Doubleduece623 and others here would cover any searches where consent was not given. I don't think there were any arrest warrants, and did not hear of any search warrents, but as everyone from the US Atty and the Mass Atty General on down were there I don't think it would have been a problem to have one issued PDQ.

We were on our way home when sus 2 was found, and not one of us didn't wish were were there.

It was a privilege and an honor to assist Boston Pd and Watertown Pd last week, and we found out those huge multi team trainings/exercises we've been holding for the last few years really paid off. Quite the experience.

Further research on Warrantless searches:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Warrantless home search hot pursuit&hl=en&as_sdt=4,60
 
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Unless you MILITARY your a civilian, your just a cop period. thou you may think your more you are not.

Grammar and spelling aside, one could perhaps more plausibly argue that in a domestic event such as this, the police, fire, FBI, and other law enforcement are the only ones not civilians, while an active-duty military who just happens to be in the area but has no particular responsibility or authority is a civilian...
 
Gives me the warm and fuzzy... I gotta tell you.
D9431031-8F53-4E98-BB47-C71000C6DDFC-32142-0000037C10C1FD4A.jpg
13 open, good odds. Looks like invading forces from Hitlers SS to me.
Note to self, 1-3-2, then 5-6rds threw open window on hummer, two short fused w/p's other side of both vans. guy/s on porch last. Take, up armored ride, use radios and hammer the airways with false flag. Just a training gig right?
 
13 open, good odds. Looks like invading forces from Hitlers SS to me.
Note to self, 1-3-2, then 5-6rds threw open window on hummer, two short fused w/p's other side of both vans. guy/s on porch last. Take, up armored ride, use radios and hammer the airways with false flag. Just a training gig right?

badassk.jpg

..........
 

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No just 13 morons finally feeling how it is to have a dick longer than 10cm for at least few sad hours and lucky enough not to have a forced peek downstairs only to find severely lacking pecker...
 
Still i,m sure all your time is spent harassing folk over their paperwork for their suppressors even off duty

Awww Jedi, you still gotta sore twat over the supressor post? That was a loooong time ago. Dont hold a grudge. Youll drop dead at your computer, where you get most of your training.
 
So i would watch my butt and remember that without a badge on, playing ninja commando in the local neighborhood may get your ass shot off by some bad ass mofo who has actually been in combat.

Considering you dont know me, I seriously doubt that is gonna happen.
 
Pretty much my point. It happens, no need, or reason to worry about it.

Although, you could have been less of a dick...

LOL- I suppose you are correct, though my response was directed more toward the notion or premise of your post, as opposed to you personally. While my response could have been more explicit I simply didn't think you would have a tampon wedged so tightly in the nether regions so as to create such hyper sensitivity....

Feelin ' the love on this thread....I'll tell ya
 
I sometimes think that government "mis-steps", or what appear to be errors in judgement are feints, or tests to see how the public will react to erosions of rights, liberties, or otherwise being tread upon by government. I also think that sometimes, those same issues are no more than innocent errors. the difficulty is determining which are simple errors, and which are deliberate, malicious tests to see what they can get away with. a great example was the seizure of firearms following hurricane Katrina.

I think your assessment is very astute. Although I would say there are or seem to be more "feigns ", using your language, than simple errors. All of which originate at the command or flag level, then filter to the field. It is not my impression that field level officers deliberately undermine the Law and people's rights, let alone maliciously, though there are always exceptions.

The disturbing aspect of this is, these "feigns" are becoming more frequent and more intrusive.
 
Part of what bothers me is that I want so desperately to believe that the "good guys" really are on our side, and that they are there to help and protect us. However, there have been so many serious issues like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Seizures of weapons post Katrina, the patriot act, that make it is increasingly difficult for me to believe in, and trust the government (as opposed to "my government") to have my best interest in mind rather than their best interest in mind.

Although I am no longer in public service, I know that the VAST majority of line officers truly do have the best interest of the general public in mind. It is the leadership that is messing things up.

Even my agency wanted to start a pilot program that I felt stepped very hard on some constitutional rights. I was not the only officer who would not play ball and go along with the program. I don't think the public hears how often things like that happen.
 
Part of what bothers me is that I want so desperately to believe that the "good guys" really are on our side, and that they are there to help and protect us. However, there have been so many serious issues like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Seizures of weapons post Katrina, the patriot act, that make it is increasingly difficult for me to believe in, and trust the government (as opposed to "my government") to have my best interest in mind rather than their best interest in mind.

Although I am no longer in public service, I know that the VAST majority of line officers truly do have the best interest of the general public in mind. It is the leadership that is messing things up.

Even my agency wanted to start a pilot program that I felt stepped very hard on some constitutional rights. I was not the only officer who would not play ball and go along with the program. I don't think the public hears how often things like that happen.

Mistrust of government is good and patriotic. As we are its master we should never fear government. What we have to guard against is if government loses its fear of us.
 
Mistrust of government is good and patriotic. As we are its master we should never fear government. What we have to guard against is if government loses its fear of us.

What we need to realize is that its not just "the Gubmint", a huge amorphous mass, but rather a COLLECTION of individuals. Many of them intend to do good, and just end up getting caught in the system, or trapped in their own stupid little boxes, and never able to see beyond that. An excellent example is our former governors Mark Warner and Tim Kaine. I do believe they are both essentially good men; Kaine a former combat marine officer (just being in the service doesn't make you fit to govern). When Warner was governor, we were rated 'best managed state'. He did an excellent job, yet as state senators, BOTH of them voted for the gun control bill, and lost any future vote from me. We are limited by the quality of persons we choose to elect, and their abilities. Seems like "We The People" need to do a better job in electing officials.

Frankly, I don't think that will do it. We are limited by the paradigm we have chosen, and I think that paradigm is FUBAR'ED. We need a new paradigm. I have some thoughts on it but they are not well formed yet, and some of it entails some undeniably 'religous' overtones best left unexpressed here. My main consolation is that I don't have too many years left to put up with this crap then a new paradigm will find me whether I like it or not, and that view in itself is kind of fucked up.
 
Mistrust of government is good and patriotic. As we are its master we should never fear government. What we have to guard against is if government loses its fear of us.

Agree. Any group of individuals can become corrupted and it happens quickly. Poor leadership, misguided concepts of a greater good, or most commonly a desire to protect the ORGANIZATION. All lead to setting aside the protections and rights of an individual.

Because LE deals with the worse aspects, behaviors and conduct of society. They must be subject to the greatest oversight and supervision. To prevent inculcated concepts forming in the collective mind of LE that its US against them. That the mind of the public in inherently criminal and but for a LE officer not on the scene everybody is a criminal.

The same concepts can easily form in the mind of the public with regards to LE. That the video depicting civilians being dragged from their homes was the SOP of the day in Watertown. Rather than an exception, if true at all.

That in the mind of the public all Politicians are the same, all corrupt. That there is no point in voting, no hope of reform, or change.
 
LOL- I suppose you are correct, though my response was directed more toward the notion or premise of your post, as opposed to you personally. While my response could have been more explicit I simply didn't think you would have a tampon wedged so tightly in the nether regions so as to create such hyper sensitivity....

Feelin ' the love on this thread....I'll tell ya

No Tampon, just a low tolerance for someone who is disrespectful for no apparent reason. Seriously, you should try that whole less of a dick thing...
 
Part of what bothers me is that I want so desperately to believe that the "good guys" really are on our side, and that they are there to help and protect us. However, there have been so many serious issues like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Seizures of weapons post Katrina, the patriot act, that make it is increasingly difficult for me to believe in, and trust the government (as opposed to "my government") to have my best interest in mind rather than their best interest in mind.

Although I am no longer in public service, I know that the VAST majority of line officers truly do have the best interest of the general public in mind. It is the leadership that is messing things up.

Even my agency wanted to start a pilot program that I felt stepped very hard on some constitutional rights. I was not the only officer who would not play ball and go along with the program. I don't think the public hears how often things like that happen.

Agree, you're right and its difficult for the "organizational man",:

"While employed by Fortune Magazine Whyte did extensive interviews with the CEOs of major American corporations such as General Electric and Ford.[3] A central tenet of the book is that average Americans subscribed to a collectivist ethic rather than to the prevailing notion of rugged individualism. A key point made was that people became convinced that organizations and groups could make better decisions than individuals, and thus serving an organization became logically preferable to advancing one's individual creativity. The author felt this was counterfactual and listed a number of examples of how individual work and creativity can produce better outcomes than collectivist processes. He observed that this system led to risk-averse executives who faced no consequences and could expect jobs for life as long as they made no egregious missteps. Whyte's book led to deeper examinations of the concept of "commitment" and "loyalty" within corporations.[4] Whyte's book matched the fictional best seller of the period, The Man In The Gray Flannel Suit by Sloan Wilson in inspiring criticism that those Americans inspired to win World War 2 returned to an empty suburban life, conformity, and the pursuit of the dollar. Marxist theorist Guy Debord discusses Whyte's observations about advanced capitalism in The Society of the Spectacle.[5]"

The Organization Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To walk down the path of decision making separate from the organization. i.e. Serpico.
 
Another ignornat, ill informed, elitist military asshole who thinks that he's above all others because he's an E-3 or above. How about you take a lesson in basic grammar before trying to insult someone douche.

LMAO
Thats the pot calling the kettle black
You guys wonder why the LEO here catch so much crap.
When all else fails become a grammar nazi, thats all you got ... weak

Really i want to like LE but you guys make it so hard, your killing your self spouting anti public crap
Wonder why most here think you guys are a joke, CJ you solely killed what lil support LE had here.

Civilian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A civilian under international humanitarian law (also known as the laws of war) is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces or other militia. Civilians are distinct from combatants. They are afforded a degree of legal protection from the effects of war and military occupation. In US parlance, a civilian is also considered one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force.[SUP][[/SUP]
My bad, being a brit, LE are civilians, Non Combatants
But definition will not help your cause, you guys present yourself like clowns. Then wonder why you are perceived as clowns.
The only group here that calls Mil folk elitist are LE, mostly because the MIL guys call you guys out.
You dont own the public contrary to the complete disdain you show for them, you work for them.
You enforce the law, YOU are NOT the LAW.
 
LMAO
Thats the pot calling the kettle black
You guys wonder why the LEO here catch so much crap.
When all else fails become a grammar nazi, thats all you got ... weak

Really i want to like LE but you guys make it so hard, your killing your self spouting anti public crap
Wonder why most here think you guys are a joke, CJ you solely killed what lil support LE had here.

Civilian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A civilian under international humanitarian law (also known as the laws of war) is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces or other militia. Civilians are distinct from combatants. They are afforded a degree of legal protection from the effects of war and military occupation. In US parlance, a civilian is also considered one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force.[SUP][[/SUP]
My bad, being a brit, LE are civilians, Non Combatants
But definition will not help your cause, you guys present yourself like clowns. Then wonder why you are perceived as clowns.
The only group here that calls Mil folk elitist are LE, mostly because the MIL guys call you guys out.
You dont own the public contrary to the complete disdain you show for them, you work for them.
You enforce the law, YOU are NOT the LAW.

Fuck you! It's not about being a grammar Nazi, it's about showcasing how much of a dumbass you are. You come on here rife with ignorance and you try to spew some bullshit diatribe then you get upset cause you get called on your own stupidity. It's guys like you who think you're above everyone else cause you were military that bring shame on the good guys that served. Go reread your initial post here, the only joke is you.
 
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Part of what bothers me is that I want so desperately to believe that the "good guys" really are on our side, and that they are there to help and protect us. However, there have been so many serious issues like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Seizures of weapons post Katrina, the patriot act, that make it is increasingly difficult for me to believe in, and trust the government (as opposed to "my government") to have my best interest in mind rather than their best interest in mind.

Although I am no longer in public service, I know that the VAST majority of line officers truly do have the best interest of the general public in mind. It is the leadership that is messing things up.

Even my agency wanted to start a pilot program that I felt stepped very hard on some constitutional rights. I was not the only officer who would not play ball and go along with the program. I don't think the public hears how often things like that happen.

My thought is that there are indeed folks within the government on both sides of the spectrum. After all it is a reflection of society, in which we live where we are now split unequivocally into two sides. A Nation truly divided. Indoctrination of anti American, Anti Republic, anti-Freedom, anti Free Trade- true free trade- which is mob rules, class warfare and cultural diversity is a powerful tool. Which we have fallen prey to.



"No Tampon, just a low tolerance for someone who is disrespectful for no apparent reason. Seriously, you should try that whole less of a dick thing..."- Um, just as seriously WyldeDime- you clearly do have a tampon that needs extraction, and are hyper sensitive. I explained the context of my comments. If that's not clear or satisfactory- sorry I guess. Grow up dude
 
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