Model 61 or 461 I believe.
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
- Start date
And, with recoil abatement, i.e. a muzzle brake, you can shoot them all day and your shoulder isn't toast. Not allowed in F-class though.
Can't tell you anything about the SCAR20 personally. Sorry!
To my knowledge I don't know of Mauser making any Sako's. Could be wrong.
SW, As far as I know the L461's are all made by Sako.
Correct. Maybe I misunderstood the question, but I thought he meant Sako making a Mauser action. That was purely for civilian use, not military. I do not know if Sako ever made Mauser actioned rifles for military use.
Correct I was wondering if Sako ever made a claw extractor Mauser type CRF action, not the Sako extractor action they usually use
Frank, it's the cold work that gits the stresses into the material. It's kind of like muscle memory, work a steel alloy around when it's cold and it's still trying to get where it thought it was in the beginning. So how I ALWAYS order is make sure you stress relieve that f'in steel bar after straighten. Or I peel as last process, which is a stress relief op. But that's not always the cure, when you see them hauling bundles of steel on forklifts with forks to narrow and the bundle is flapping like an albatross, to get it to the truck to get to me. You and I on same page, deal with mill guys first.
Hoop stress and longitudinal stress.
Thanks
Yes, in your position, I might be freaking out watching some bonehead, "Get the load on the truck faster". I watched some guy doing that with a 747 engine valued at $10m used. They are heavy and it would tip the forklift down if you stopped too fast. "So, don't get going fast!!" we'd say. It got on the truck okay, but man....
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Just curious, do any of yall know how the Swiss K31 barrels were rifled? A member on gunboards apparently hardness tested a K31 barrel and it came out at 48 RC! Thats ridiculously hard for a barrel, and Id have to imagine that hardness is only at the surface?
Anyway, Id have to imagine they were hammer forged to acheive a hardness level that high? But according to Geoff Kolbe, the 1st CHF machines didnt come about until '39..?
So assuming the K31 barrels are cut rifled, how'd they achieve hardness that high without ruining tooling?
PS: the K31 barrel hardness of 48 RC was secondhand info... so not sure how accurate. But fwiw, Swede Mauser steel is also supposed to be some incredible quality stuff, with some claiming extremely high hardness levels like they do with Swiss K31's.. Yet,. A member there had a piece of M96 barrel steel x-rayed, and it was said to be most similar to O6 or E52100 tool steel, with a hardness of 28.5 RC. Nothing really that extraordinary at all(by today's standards). Though most definitely among the best of the best in it's day..
Anyway, Id have to imagine they were hammer forged to acheive a hardness level that high? But according to Geoff Kolbe, the 1st CHF machines didnt come about until '39..?
So assuming the K31 barrels are cut rifled, how'd they achieve hardness that high without ruining tooling?
PS: the K31 barrel hardness of 48 RC was secondhand info... so not sure how accurate. But fwiw, Swede Mauser steel is also supposed to be some incredible quality stuff, with some claiming extremely high hardness levels like they do with Swiss K31's.. Yet,. A member there had a piece of M96 barrel steel x-rayed, and it was said to be most similar to O6 or E52100 tool steel, with a hardness of 28.5 RC. Nothing really that extraordinary at all(by today's standards). Though most definitely among the best of the best in it's day..
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You wouldn't be cold hammer forging to achieve Rc48. Probably checked barrel hardness on outside, and probably not accurate measurement. Only way to hit 48 would be a heat treatment after or a coating, and no one would want a 48Rc steel substrate to kaboom anyway. No longer tough. Now brittle.
I actually included that question in my post but erased cause I thought it might be a dumb question..
So it is possible to heat treat a barrel after rifling without changing dimensions?
Also, would it become detrimental to barrel life once you reach a certain hardness? Since, as I understand it, one of the factors of a barrel’s life is the bore work-hardening over time and forming those little cracks/dry lake bed effect until a chunk breaks off and accuracy goes goodbye?
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Material based, it's metallurgy dude. Can't heat treat traditional barrel materials in traditional contours or OD's to meet a 48Rc without it going kaboom on both ends. So if you get too hard, depending on impact strength your barrel life could be 1 or less than 1. There are other alloys in the industry that might be less intimidated. But you still have to machine it. Don't get nothing for free. Nitriding is way to 'harden' a material by giving it a case depth of 'hard' material surrounded by tough outside softer skin. For best results typically need to use a steel alloy with ingredients that favor the nitriding, such as aluminum.
Less a work hardening factor for throat erosion, well perhaps could say it's part of the puzzle rather than the defining factor. It's more like the pregnant lady giving birth, and what remains are the stretch marks. What we are striving for is the proverbial doctor adding a stitch or two. 65kpsi and some heat thru thin wall tube, and some unburnt powder and powder fillers to sandblast a bit, bit o' primer junk to get into the pores. I can set a metronome to time fire a bolt gun for 800 rounds and make that throat look a lot worse than a machine gun barrel after 10k rounds.
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Did nitriding exist pre-WW2? I’m starting to lean toward the guy claiming 48 RC for K31 barrels was just talking out his rear end. Certainly the Swiss and Swede rifles used real high quality steel, apparently even the Germans were supposedly jealous of the steel that the Swedes had access to. But when it was actually tested, it was within a typical barrel’s hardness range, 28.5. And IIRC, Larry Racine at least used to rebarrel K31’s by chopping off and threading the barrel stub. Don’t recall him mentioning having to do anything special in working with the Swiss barrel steel..
Did nitriding exist pre-WW2? I’m starting to lean toward the guy claiming 48 RC for K31 barrels was just talking out his rear end. Certainly the Swiss and Swede rifles used real high quality steel, apparently even the Germans were supposedly jealous of the steel that the Swedes had access to. But when it was actually tested, it was within a typical barrel’s hardness range, 28.5. And IIRC, Larry Racine at least used to rebarrel K31’s by chopping off and threading the barrel stub. Don’t recall him mentioning having to do anything special in working with the Swiss barrel steel..
Chrome existed then. The high quality steels didn't necessarily mean they were harder btw. Might have meant cleaner, less porous.
@Frank Green @__JR__ do y’all recognize what machine Pedersoli uses to broach cut rifle their barrels?
Yes. It's an internal broach. there are many types of broach machines around that will do a controlled helical cut. I have broach rifling tools from wayback that look very similar to the tool shown. I liked the straightener myself, similar to the coat rack I had back in the day.
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Is it possible to sharpen and reuse broaches multiple times the same as a hook cutter? Or will it be too small to cut a proper groove depth after sharpening?
sure, but it's last tooth that counts to finish size
and form . and all depends on geometry.
and form . and all depends on geometry.
As JR said there are different types of machines that can pull the broach.
JR did you catch it around the 6 minute mark where after they pull the broach thru then they pull a button thru to try and smooth out the grooves. Nothing like possibly creating a bottom less pit. For one if there is any mis alignment with the button and the existing rifling etc...you will start messing up the lands and or if what the broach cut the groove land with to and what the button does will cause issues as well.
JR did you catch it around the 6 minute mark where after they pull the broach thru then they pull a button thru to try and smooth out the grooves. Nothing like possibly creating a bottom less pit. For one if there is any mis alignment with the button and the existing rifling etc...you will start messing up the lands and or if what the broach cut the groove land with to and what the button does will cause issues as well.
Interesting, I didn’t catch that. I wonder where they got the idea to do that from, and why not just go with one or the other..?
Frank, I worked Europe for how long.. I don't try to figure out why they do things wrong. LOL
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Other places have done or do still do it.
To me your just asking for problems. If you cut rifle all or half of the barrel and then pull a button thru. Just cut rifle the whole thing and finish lap it and be done with it. The button isn’t going to make it any better in my opinion. Again just throwing another variable in the mix and button rifling is a bigger variable.
To me your just asking for problems. If you cut rifle all or half of the barrel and then pull a button thru. Just cut rifle the whole thing and finish lap it and be done with it. The button isn’t going to make it any better in my opinion. Again just throwing another variable in the mix and button rifling is a bigger variable.
Missing my point. If you do it right to begin with, you don't have to go thru the struggle to make it right. Straight's straight, queer's queer. How I lernt the trad anyway. I did get to learn the straightener, only to learn it was a bellend on the neck, to make a crooked hole straight rather than make it straight to begin with..Solved many problems.
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JR, I think we are talking about two different things.
I'm not talking about straightening the barrel. I'm there with you on that as well.
What I was talking about was them broach cutting the barrel and then pulling a button thru it.
Later, Frank
Ha, no I was with you bud, just didn't cut to the chase.. Get it right and you don't have to rifle twice. They just as well go straight to button, but perhaps they had difficulty with broaches staying together cutting full depth, or the length of broach needed to go full depth precluded them from doing so, and difficulty with buttons staying together ironing full depth. what is curious is if they are buttoning after profile, the finish bore diameters might not be that consistent as changes in the wall thickness. button is all about hoop stress for consistent spring back. Different strokes I guess
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Would/should they stress relieve after running a button thru a broach cut barrel?
Also meant to ask, can/does reamer chatter/tooling chatter impart stress into a barrel?
@Frank Green
You should run a stress relieve op after pulling a button thru. Regardless if it's been broached prior. Hole is a hole. Hoop is a hoop. Moved material, didn't cut.
Cold work, cold forming, or shock is usually what imparts stresses into steel. Bending moments, forming, dropping on the concrete floor, that sort of thing. A chattering reamer could, if it is more moving material around than removing material in a clean cut. But a chattered reamed hole will have bigger issues than stress. And your definition of chatter could be different than mine. Tool marks aren't necessarily chatter. Franks likely seen a chattering bore reamer, which looks smooth with borescope but when eyeballed it looks pre rifled. Zany!
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Yep we are on the same page! Seems redundant and extra work when the work isn't needed if you do it right the first time!
@Frank Green @__JR__ do yall know if HS Precision barrels are single point cut rifled or broach cut rifled?
His name aint Atkinson is it?
Nope. WTA is dead. The legend is Nubbins, and he's the real deal.
Was Atkinson making barrels before Obermeyer? Where/from who did Obermeyer learn to rifle barrels?
@Frank Green @__JR__ thanks a ton for answering all my dumb questions gentlemen!
Btw, have yall ever tried a stainless steel barrel on a full auto and if so, did you notice any difference vs CM?
Also, have you ever tried making a 17-4PH SS barrel? The only ones I ever heard of was John Noveske apparently made a few several years back, and it was so hard on tooling that he stopped after just like ~10 of em... I dont believe the Lothar Walther propietary steel is 17-4, but I could be wrong.
I'd have to check on that, but venture he was. Atkinson was part of the A&M barrels back in the day, who were in the forms of the Sukalles and Popes, and the other read about greats.
I have personally cut rifled 17-4, 15-5, stellite (cobalt chromium), Stavax, H series, leaded and unleaded 41series CM, all the forms of 410SS, brass, 6061 and 7075, Hip clad, tantalum, many european grades we don't see here including the 'proprietary' LW material am not at liberty to discuss. And more. Had people show up with a piece of conduit or pipe, why not. How about clear acrylic, that would make a good video. who knows, lets try it. Oh, and wood.
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Wow, was the stellite tough on tooling? Also, why not go to one of these more exotic materials permanently? I would think stellite especially would last near forever..??
I remember some crazy Canucks cut rifling a piece of rebar for a .22, actually shot very well!!
I'd like a rifled piece of high tensile rebar for a "garbage rod" mosin nagant rebuild at some point in my life...
Rebar barrel
124171241612418Ive had several emails and phone calls about the article in Precision Shooting about my rebar barrel made by myself and Ron Smith here in Alberta Canada. A couple of fellows asked if I could write a little about it on this Forum so here goes. As many Canadians an US shooter know...
benchrest.com
Apparently a schuetzen rifle in .357 Max, not a .22 ... according to a reply at the bottom.
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@Frank Green @__JR__ have y’all ever heard of any barrel makers offering apprenticeships? What would be the best way to go about getting a foot in the door of the barrel business?
Do y’all know of any barrel makers in Georgia since Mr Clay Spencer retired?
Do y’all know of any barrel makers in Georgia since Mr Clay Spencer retired?
Thanks for the shoutout @Ravenworks - Imagine my surprise when I'm just casually browsing along on the Hide and my name pops up in conversation!
These days I'm no longer affiliated with Criterion (I work for a marketing agency that represents a few firearm manufacturers like Vortakt Barrel Works and Midwest Industries, and put together my own little side-hustle start up called Precision Rifle Components), but I do still have a copy of that GCA article we published regarding the vintage WWII machinery Criterion was using in the shop at the time (see attached).
Aside from that, @Frank Green is most likely correct with his assessment that Pratt cut-rifling machines were used in the wartime production of M1 Garand and 1903 barrels (with both Sine Bar riflers and the B-Series hydraulic riflers).
You can find a nice little write-up on the subject here.
Attachments
Thanks for chiming in sir! Do you know how the original M1 and M14 National Match barrels were selected? Was the process different for 1903NM's and M1's and M14NM's? Ie I know the 03 barrels were star gauged, but havent heard about M1 and M14 NM barrels being star gauged..??
Also werent the M2HB barrels stellite lined?
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