Advanced Marksmanship  Tips & Tricks, from Tripods to Stage Examples for - UKD Team Field Match or Hunting

Diver160651

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    See the 2021 match schedule here: https://www.avenaltactical.com/ including the next UKD Team Match, 2 PRS Pro Bolt series, PRS SW Regional Qualifier, and monthly Hunter and PRS regional series, matches.

    Because our match was sold out 10 months in advance, we feel we should offer a spin up series of topics on how to prepare best for our UKD Field Match, what to expect, tips, and tricks, and stage samples. Many of the techniques we will discuss will also have an application for hunting. The intent is to help shooters better prepare and develop field skills. The topics for tips cover field tripod use, testing your PLRFs beam, team dope cards & arm boards, to what to carry with stage samples and stage debriefings.

    We have several industry leaders that have donated to support the shooters. Companies like these, giving back to shooters, is nothing short of amazing. Please remember to look at our sponsors first when considering a new toy.

    We'd love to have shooters of all levels post a tip if they have one. Please post your questions and suggestions, your input is welcome, even if you're not shooting this match.

    If your team is shooting this, read the tips; some of the stages will use strategies from multiple tips segments - Everything you need to sail through the stages will be shared here. Make sure to create an account so that you can see the details shared in the pictures.


    Use the index below if you'd like to skip to a topic.


    Thumb-TEAM.png
    The Intro:
    Skip to post #29:​
    Thumb-Stage-Far-loop.png
    Stage roll-up of one of the lowest scoring stages in last year's UKD:
    Skip to post #35 Note if some of the tips were followed; this should have been everyone's highest-scoring stage.​
    Thumb-Tripods.png
    Tips: Tripod use in a field match or hunting.
    Skip to post #55​
    Maybe you'll find something to make deployment faster and possibly reduce the wobble with just a few tweaks.​
    Thumb-Able.png
    Tips: The Able Table and a bag for a field match or hunting.
    Skip to post #79​
    Thumb-BT-Daves-Dope.png
    Stage Spoiler for BT's One-Shot Team Challenge - Dave's Devious Dope Test.
    Skip to post #105 The first 2020 Stage Spoiler.​
    Thumb-NV.png
    Tips: PLRF beam verification techniques
    Skip to post #123​
    thumbsPrime.png
    Come to a match and practice your tripod shots Skip to post #125​
    thumbsloophole.png
    Stage Spoiler, The Hide:- We'll bring the stage rollup, BT & Dave's Devious Dope Test, and the Tripod tips, all together with the final piece that will help you crush this stage or set up your blind with more stealth. Skip to post #136​
    thumbsTripod.png
    Tips: Tripod info on the lightest tripods best suited for shooting.
    Armboard.png
    Stage Spoiler, Team strategies:
    Skip to post #164​
    James-gear.png
    What to carry:
    Skip to post #174​
    Reticle Ranging thumbs.png
    Reticle Ranging and why there is no place for it in Precision Rifle today. Skip to post #177 There is a hint bomb for the reticle ranging thread in the post
    Match debrief-01.png
    2020 Stage debriefs and solutions to the stages:
    2020 Match Debrief and Stage example, Daves' Devious Dope - AKA The Pencils. Skip to post #223​
    2020 Match Debrief and Stage example, The Loophole Skip to post #233​


    11-2021 registration coming soon 11-2020 Officially full almost 10 months in advance -


    UKD-Logo.png
    `
    UKD Team Challenge was a huge hit and sold out almost 4 months in advance last year! (Registration opens Feb 1. SOLD OUT 10 months in advance.)

    The date is set for another 2 person Team Match in 2020. Last year it sold out fast! The idea is for this to be good practice for a larger match or the ideal first field style match for the shooter. We plan to keep the match small. Teams had a blast last year, so get registered.

    The date is Sunday, Nov 22, 2020 @ 7:00 AM ~ If you are interested, even without a partner, please sign up below --

    Here is our link to the PractiScore signup: https://practiscore.com/team-challen...clone/register

    Here is the basic plan subject to change
    Saturday Optional:
    • BBQ hamburgers and hot dogs Saturday Night (Weather depending)
    • Free Camping
    • NRL 22 match on Saturday evening (sign up via PractiScore run as a separate event)
    • Sight-in
    Sunday:
    • UKD - Unknown Distance Range it, find it and shoot it. (Range finders are fine, and most stages will have a known size if you'd rather use a reticle)
    • One reticle only stage
    • Time will be shared between team members but should be very generous if the team is organized, shooters will work together
    • Round count somewhere around 160+ per team
    • Managing Ammo might play into team strategy this year (hint)
    • Mostly natural terrain like you might find hunting in the foothills, side-slopes, down-slopes, dead space problems-- tripods are recommenced our very tall shooting sticks
    • Tripods, shooting sticks, Packs whatever you want to ruck up the hills will be fine
    • The course requires between 2-3 miles of hiking depending on the starting position
    • You can share gear, but sharing tripods will cause you to be less effective with your time management.
    Parctiscore sign up is free, but you do need an set up a quick account. You can sign up for any match, but this particular match is Team Challenge Unknown Distance Long Range Match.

    You can find all out matches by going to Practiscore.com, selecting "Matches" at the top, Then "checking" "California" on the left under State, Then "checking," "Avenal" under City.

    Price: For early sign up via PractiScore fee will be $50 each, but will going to $75 as we get closer.

    2020 UKD TEAM Match Sponsors:

    spnsor logos for posts-01.png
     
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    Mxridr

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    Awesome match. These guys put on a great match. Most fun I have had shooting in a long time.
     
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    mojavejim

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    Signed up, also looking for partner. Someone in SoCal would be best but not mandatory. Would like to practice some before Nov. with partner. I did the last match & got teamed with someone that didn't show and had 1/2 the time allotment, fun match but meant to be a team match. I also know of another team match possibly in May SoCal area.
     
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    Diver160651

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    Signed up, also looking for partner. Someone in SoCal would be best but not mandatory. Would like to practice some before Nov. with partner. I did the last match & got teamed with someone that didn't show and had 1/2 the time allotment, fun match but meant to be a team match. I also know of another team match possibly in May SoCal area.

    Yes, I remember. I was the RO in "The Hole." I mentioned what a disadvantage it was to shoot without a teammate and that next year, if we end up with a single shooter, we will extend them an extra minute or so. But we are going to make every effort to make sure we have a partner for everyone and give everyone ample time for email communication as such.

    The beauty of this selling out about 10 months in advance is that we will have a lot of prep-time and can offer practice days or help for shooters interested. Even though it will be a long drive for some, we will open up a few days to use the range, ideally to meet partners and also shoot a make-believe stage. I am not sure of the dates for practice sessions; we will have several. The cost would only be the $5 range guest fee.

    I will be sending a squad email out this week, so I can figure out who needs partners. I guess we can always add one more stage and squeeze a couple more in, but ideally, I'd like to keep this as is - Either way, we are going to have a couple of new fun challenges and a couple that some of the shooters requested we repeat. The repeats will be the same theme, but not the same target locations.

    I look like we are realistically full or going to be so this week because I do some people registered without their expected partner if you're at all interested sign up now.

    Jim T
     
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    mojavejim

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    Sounds good Diver, I signed up right off. I'll do it solo if need be, I just like doing the RTC style match's for learning something new. Last year I did a PRS comp in MT that had 2 RTC type stages back to back with continuous time running and I really got my a$$ handed to me on those stages. It really got in my head and changed the flow of the match for me. I was doing well & hitting the targets before I pissed me off, lol. Knowing that it's a weakness never having any experience before that, I'm all in for learning some tricks. I definitely evolved each stage your last match.
     
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    rommel500

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    My friend and I signed up last night. We're about 90 minutes away. Looking forward to it! We're also up for practice days but hoping they are on the weekends as weekdays are a little more challenging with work schedules.

    Will you guys send out emails for the practice days?
     

    Diver160651

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    My friend and I signed up last night. We're about 90 minutes away. Looking forward to it! We're also up for practice days but hoping they are on the weekends as weekdays are a little more challenging with work schedules.

    Will you guys send out emails for the practice days?

    I might do both a couple of weekends and a weekday, maybe 2.

    You will get emails through PractiScore, but I am not wanting to flood everyone with emails. I thinking out loud, but maybe the best is to keep this thread alive with the details as they unfold??

    Of course, not all shooters need or want help, but our main goal is to offer help for anyone interested. Team matches are super fun, sometimes you'll both be shooting at the same time, sometimes you will not, but you'll always be working together. It brings an entirely new level of fun to the game. The game is how do we most efficiently accomplish the unique task together, vs our other PRS style matches where it is how do "I" defeat the barricade with almost no time. Anyway, I know it is a departure from the norm, but my thought is that if we offer tips, practice and a simulated stage or two during the lead up to the match and keep the entry fee low, more people will have fun on match day and want to shoot more matches!


    BTW we are also having a The PRS Sharp Shooter Pro Bolt Series

    This one has many open spots but as a National 2 day more $$
    PRS-small.png

    Match starts: March 21, 2020 @ 7:00 AM · Match ends: March 22, 2020 @ 5:00 PM
     
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    Diver160651

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    Hopefully this corona virus won’t mess with our plans!

    Who knows what time will bring. Some may have financial issues, some work distractions. We are still planning on the event in November, but of course, stuff seems to be constantly changing.

    Anyway, I came back from our range yesterday and was thinking about what we could do in the meantime to keep us thinking about team shooting. The match is meant as a spin-up, so while I was planning on a few new "thinking" challenges, repeating some that teams struggled with, perhaps we could have a discussion about the best strategies for some of these Stages? Maybe we could discuss a stage example once a month.

    The match is sold out, but not everyone is on the Hide, so I need to figure that part out.

    Let me know what you guys think.
     

    ThreeBravo

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    Who knows what time will bring. Some may have financial issues, some work distractions. We are still planning on the event in November, but of course, stuff seems to be constantly changing.

    Anyway, I came back from our range yesterday and was thinking about what we could do in the meantime to keep us thinking about team shooting. The match is meant as a spin-up, so while I was planning on a few new "thinking" challenges, repeating some that teams struggled with, perhaps we could have a discussion about the best strategies for some of these Stages? Maybe we could discuss a stage example once a month.

    The match is sold out, but not everyone is on the Hide, so I need to figure that part out.

    Let me know what you guys think.
    That sounds like a really good idea. It would be great to hear what some of the teams had trouble with last time and maybe hear what they did to overcome it or how they plan to attack it at the next match. It would definitely benefit those like myself that are going for the first time to have some material to work on and plan for.
     

    EN2722

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    Who knows what time will bring. Some may have financial issues, some work distractions. We are still planning on the event in November, but of course, stuff seems to be constantly changing.

    Anyway, I came back from our range yesterday and was thinking about what we could do in the meantime to keep us thinking about team shooting. The match is meant as a spin-up, so while I was planning on a few new "thinking" challenges, repeating some that teams struggled with, perhaps we could have a discussion about the best strategies for some of these Stages? Maybe we could discuss a stage example once a month.

    The match is sold out, but not everyone is on the Hide, so I need to figure that part out.

    Let me know what you guys think.

    I concur with @ThreeBravo. Having never shot a team match before I'm sure there's a ton to learn and I would seek out the post every month to read and participate.

    Just a thought; if everyone signed up via Practiscore last year maybe you still have their emails? If so, maybe shoot out the question or theme via email and allow everyone to respond and then copy and paste it in here. I know it's a lot of work on your part.
     

    Diver160651

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    I concur with @ThreeBravo. Having never shot a team match before I'm sure there's a ton to learn and I would seek out the post every month to read and participate.

    Just a thought; if everyone signed up via Practiscore last year maybe you still have their emails? If so, maybe shoot out the question or theme via email and allow everyone to respond and then copy and paste it in here. I know it's a lot of work on your part.

    I am in the process of doing exactly that. But Thinking having the discusion here is better than being bombarded via the emails.
     
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    Diver160651

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    We name stages after the flavor of what we are tring to get the teams to think about. The name is usually part of the key in finding the best solution.

    Just to get you guys thinking, one of the new stages will be called "Comunication - Radio your teammate"

    PS: It is probably not something you've done in a match before ~
     
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    Diver160651

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    Lol, Diver’s in your head already, five months ahead of the match. This is good stuff! :ROFLMAO: :cool:

    LOL, after all these years, you might know me better than my wife!

    Actually, I plan on stepping through a stage like the one listed above. Getting all the questions out etc...

    Then maybe cover some other general topics like how to approach a stage using the tripod. 95% of the shooters can error in their set up their first field match with the way I'll create loops. It might be cool just to have a general discussion, even with some of the RTC shooters giving advice when the right topic pops up.

    I'd like to be hopscotching back and forth with another stage introduction, like "Reticle ranging, is it mirage?" Then another general topic and so on,
     

    Diver160651

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    What do you guys think about the ammo hint, possibly shoot as rounds as you want at a target?
    There is at least one unlimited round stage this year. But it is mixed with accuracy and a precision component. Shooting a lot of rounds doesn’t mean you out score a good shooting team, but you might be able to equal their score... but the best shooting team probably will still win the stage.. hum.

    Of course unlimited ammo stages come a price of knowing your ammo budget.

    We’ll discuss this very unique stage as well. Dave Christenson inspired this stage.
     
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    Diver160651

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    I'll kick this off with a discussion on one of the Stages last year that so many struggled. The targets were not small, the time was long, but most missed the key components. The stage name is "In the Trees" and contained both a literal and figurative hint. I'll share the stage card, discuss the one main organizational goal that would have made this stage super simple as well as the simple physical challenges designed into it.

    Just a quick preface on the underlining theme to the stages:

    In general, we try to set up the stages so that everyone will hit a fair share of targets. But, I try to put a couple of thinking challenges in every stage. The topography we use for our FFPs (field firing positions) while hilly and really steep in some areas, it is relatively straight forward. We do not have trees, and big natural rocks to shoot off, so we use the slopes and valleys to create the challenges. Usually, we managed to set up the FFP so that it appears much more simple than it is. We know that teams will often set up rather hastily, have a bit of tunnel vision, and often be lured into a shooting position that is way to low trying to shoot from the most stable position or on the wrong side of the FFP.

    Generally, there is only one tough target to find, and it will have the highest point value of the stage. If you shoot targets out of order, they are considered a miss; you may skip a target if you make sure the RO knows and confirms the new target. The skipped target is regarded as a miss, and you can not go back and re-engage it. First-round hits have a higher point value than second-round hits; if you're reading between the lines, good for you! There is a VERY IMPORTANT STRATEGY in this paragraph. The strategy is not useful on every stage, but when and if the team is crunched on time, it is highly valuable.

    Teams are staged away from the FFP, so they don't get the advantage of watching the other teams. All glassing and ranging are done on the clock inside of the FFP boundaries. If teams shot the same exact guns, dope almost takes care of itself and is a huge time saver. Couple that with a PLRF/binos that displays the team's dope, and it is a different ball game. Because most teams do not have that luxury of having the exact same dope, using PLRF/binos that display dope isn't really as efficient unless you adopt a different strategy. Team's with dissimilar systems and standard range finders can absolutely work with efficiency, smoothly and thus quickly with a bit of early planning.

    I intend to deconstruct a stage this month, as I think it will give a lot of insight into what we are trying to share (get them to think about or do) with the teams. Then, we'll discuss the ways for teams without the matching systems can use to save time and work efficiently.

    I will not have all the answers, but I will invite all to chime in and share if they have a better way or suggestions. I see this unfolding over the next several months.

    Jim

    2020 UKD TEAM Match Sponsors:
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    ThreeBravo

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    The more posts I read the more I feel like this competition will be more about problem solving and team work than I originally thought and I can't wait!
     

    seansmd

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    I think I kick this off next week with a discussion on one of the Stages last year that so many struggled. The targets were not small, the time was long, but most missed the key components. The stage name is "In the Trees" and cared both a literal and figurative hint. I'll share the stage card, discuss the one main organizational goal that would have made this stage super simple as well as the simple physical challenges designed into it.

    Just a quick preface on the underlining theme to the stages:

    In general, we try to set up the stages so that everyone will hit a fair share of targets. But, I try to put a couple of thinking challenges in every stage. The topography we use for our FFPs (field firing positions) while hilly and really steep in some areas, it is relatively straight forward. We do not have trees, and big natural rocks to shoot off, so we use the slopes and valleys to create the challenges. Usually, we managed to set up the FFP so that it appears much more simple than it is. We know that teams will often set up rather hastily, have a bit of tunnel vision, and often be lured into a shooting position that is way to low trying to shoot from the most stable position or on the wrong side of the FFP.

    Generally, there is only one tough target to find, and it will have the highest point value of the stage. If you shoot targets out of order, they are considered a miss; you may skip a target if you make sure the RO knows and confirms the new target. The skipped target is regarded as a miss, and you can not go back and re-engage it. First-round hits have a higher point value than second-round hits; if you're reading between the lines, good for you! There is a VERY IMPORTANT STRATEGY in this paragraph. The strategy is not useful on every stage, but when and if the team is crunched on time, it is highly valuable.

    Teams are staged away from the FFP, so they don't get the advantage of watching the other teams. All glassing and ranging are done on the clock inside of the FFP boundaries. If teams shot the same exact guns, dope almost takes care of itself and is a huge time saver. Couple that with a PLRF/binos that displays the team's dope, and it is a different ball game. Because most teams do not have that luxury of having the exact same dope, using PLRF/binos that display dope isn't really as efficient unless you adopt a different strategy. Team's with dissimilar systems and standard range finders can absolutely work with efficiency, smoothly and thus quickly with a bit of pre-planning.

    I intend to deconstruct a stage this month, as I think it will give a lot of insight to what we are trying to share (get them to think about or do) with the teams. Then, we'll discuss the ways for teams without the matching systems to save time and work efficiently.

    I will not have all the answers, but I will invite all to chime in and share if they have a better way or suggestions. I see this unfolding over the next several months. @seansmd suggested maybe we have an open Zoom QA video chat at some point; he knows my communication via the keyboard sucks. I guess that's always a possibility others also would like to participate, but I'll leave that up to you guys.

    Jim
    Jim,

    I think this is a great idea, look forward to the discussion.
     
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    seansmd

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    I would say teamwork, communication, and honest skills assessment are huge. One shooter might be fast on target acquisition, and ranging, but not as good a precision shot. Knowing who plays what role on specific stages is huge.
     

    Diver160651

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    Let's start this by posting a roll-up of a stage used last year, called "In the Trees."
    You need to be signed in to see the images with enough detail to read the information contained on them.

    HINT: I polled the match shooters directly after the match, and this was by far, the stage they would like to see repeated in 2020!


    Repeating, we do not have the variety of a forest, so we have to make the game a bit more cryptic in the challenge but offer tons of time, more than most team matches. If you shot this last year, you might find what I was thinking and how I imagined the best approach would have made this one of the most manageable stages instead of the hardest. The solutions are super simple, more like best practices. Some teams already incorporate excellent strategies, and my debrief of this stage may not be helpful. For others, I hope that it is.

    What I think about when I set the challenges:
    I suspect that many shooters are going to be very predictable in their set up behavior. With that in mind, I'll set up to try to exploit expected behavior, and that becomes the simple challenge.
    • Most shooters will think left to right, near to far, or remember things in a clockwise fashion.
    • Most shooters will spot at a comfortable standing height, but set their guns up in the lowest stable position.
    • Most shooters will not create a terrain map, nor will they identify lateral limits.
    • Many shooters do not have a strategy for ranging through loops or in areas that might challenge a PLRF (range finder).
    • Teams with different height shooters often do not arrange themselves to match the terrain.
    Basic Stage flow:
    • The shooters are called to the stage by the RO (Range officer, but actually the person in charge of the stage) from the staging area.
    • The RO quickly goes over the COF (Course of Fire), reinforces the lateral limits, then the teams enter the FFP (field firing position) with their gear.
    • The FFP has a large laminated COF sign for the shooters, with all the information needed. Last year, we had a considerable amount of time for the shooters to read through the target sign.
    • Time starts, and shooters begin to glass and range and perform their final set up.
    • Shooters will identify their starting target.
    • RO will call "impact" or "re-engage" for a miss for the first round on target. For the second or last round on a target, the RO will call "impact," followed by the next "target number" or for a miss, just the next "target number."
    • When time is up, RO calls, "time."
    • Guns are made safe; Teams review their scores and head to the next staging area.
    Three Key skills tests designed into the "In the Trees" stage:
    • Knowing how and when to create a terrain map.
    • Kowing your range finder's limits and how to works around them.
    • Knowing that spotting height/shooting height is critical when looking at targets through loops.

    The staging areas are marked in white; these are away from the Stage FFPs.
    Unknown-14.jpeg


    Stage and FFP are marked in Orange. Both of the shooters and any gear they are going to use MUST be inside the orange boundaries. If the FFP was super simple, you could expect something isn't as straight forward as sitting down and just shooting. Expect, finding at least one target not to be seen from the lowest default position.
    Unknown-13.jpeg


    Soon as I hear this briefing, see the stage sign and look at the target, the first thing I am thinking is that I'll need a terrain map. (more on that later)
    Screen Shot 2020-04-20 at 5.46.02 PM.png


    Looking from the FFP towards the UKDs (unkown distance targets), I'll take whatever clues I'm given to start to identify where I should be looking to find the targets. For this match, we are providing a landmark, min-max range, and lateral limits via azimuth. However, the RO's add a bit of verbal information in the stage brief. Something like "See the big group of trees in the middle of the valley between the slope on the left and the slope on the right? The targets are all nestled in the trees ". So you have your lateral limits defined in two ways.
    Trees-1.png


    I need to know where to look, so I do not waste time. My first step is to define the limits. I'll quickly range to define my distance windows.
    Trees-2range.png


    I'll use either the RO's verbal clues or the azimuth numbers to define the lateral limits. Both of these steps are in my head at this point, but I know how to constrain my search.
    Trees-2az.png



    The Terrian Map- the key to the stage:
    Because this looks kind of complicated, I am going to make a terrain map on my arm-board. This was the main skill required for making this stage easy.

    It takes just a second to sketch out the trees, and I'll add the target location and our drop as I find and range. Imagine trying to remember the shooting sequence, because it is not near to far or in any logical fashion. I write down both my drop and my partners.

    Note: some of the targets were moved for the actual match. (Tip - will cover in another segment, tear off the masking tape, nothing messy to erase, just fast and easy to use)
    Unknown-15.jpeg



    My Range Card has my dope in black and my partners with dissimilar caliber in Orange. (Tip - will cover in another segment)
    Unknown-16.jpeg



    Another essential skillset tested by this stage is to understand how obstacles can be in the way of the shooter's LOS (line of sight), yet still, be very easy to hit. For the sake of this argument, I am going to call these "loops." These are not the typical loops you might think about with a couple of bricks knocked out of the wall in your hide, but very representative of what you might find downrange or while hunting. Assuming most of a target is obscured from view, the shooters need to determine what POA (point of aim) is going to give the shooter the most odds of an impact.

    I'll use a typical 308 in 29.9inHg for this example. For a 700y target, Max ORD (the highest point in the parabolic arc above the LOS) will be about 53" just shy of 400y; a 6.5 about 20" less and a bit closer. AT 875y the 308's Max ORD is near 100" and very close to 500y. These are give-or-take numbers, but close enough that using even ballpark numbers will give the teams that understand this an edge.

    Before I dive into the trees, let me use an example from another stage. I think this will help illustrate the idea more straightforward. We had a full-sized IPSIC Silhouette at approximately 850y with a berm 10y behind it. At about 600y, a slope was used so that from a stable standing position with the hips bent; it would visually block all but the head and very top of the shoulders. Set up any lower, and the slope would completely block the shooter's view of the target. The IPSIC is 30" tall and 18" wide, so it is a GIANT target, but the head was only about 6"x6" and all that you could really range or aim at "directly."

    The hill in front presented a challenge to some people's range finders. Visually, it was hard to identify just how close it was to the target it was. Obviously, if you erroneously received a return from the ridge in front trying to range the 6"s of target showing and thought it was 600y, you'd hit the dirt. If you ranged the hill in the back, you might hit .1-.2mil high. Still, .2mil is of extra elevation is nothing on a 30" tall plate. But if you set your POA to hit dead center on the 6"x6" of the IPSC's head that was showing, you'd have very little room for wind and the extra .1-.2mil of elevation would come into play. So, what is the best way to range, and where should you aim?
    IPSICLOOP.png


    I'll use how I would approach the stage, just because it is easier for me to describe the problem we designed into the stage. I would quickly range the hill in front, then the hill in the back, and finally spend more time trying to get a return from the head. This is actually much faster than trying to range the head over and over. The results should quickly show the slope is about 590-600, and the hill in the back is at 860. Getting a third return (easily accomplished with the PLRFs with tighter beam diversion) or by sending enough pings to get the third return, I know I have the actual plate at 850.

    I know that I have about 24" of an 18" wide plate, hidden visually by the ridge 250 yards in front. I know with the wind and any ranging error, the head is going to be damn hard to hit and that the parabolic curve on the 308 is at 90"+ Max ORD just a 100 yards before the berm. A 6.5's Max Ord is maybe 50y sooner but still close to 60". Of course, I do not have the entire Max ORD to work with, but reasonably certain even without a solver; I can spare .3 mil or 9-10". I also know that the total IPSIC at 30" is almost 1mil at 850y, so I will dial my 850y dope and hold under .5 mils from the top of the head. This should put me into the upper part of the meat of the plate. If I was unsure or the distance of the object in front of the plate, maybe I'd hold under a tiny bit less. This is one stage that I might dial at least partial windage, so I am closer to the hold under strata line.

    For what it is worth, I am NOT doing the Max ORD via a solver; I am NOT really worrying about how exact it is, all that we're doing or expect the shooters to do is have a base knowledge on what direction to cheat their POA.


    After the match, when we pulled the target, and some impacts signatures where at the very bottom, obviously some teams knew what they were doing. A few, were on the edges of the head. But there was nowhere near as many impacts as there should have been.
    Loop-IPSIC-trans.png


    With the above in mind, for "In the Trees" stage, we had several things going on at once: (Please refer to the terrain map)

    T5 was almost identical to the description above, but the slope on the right side than formed a visual barrier as it approached the trees. Just like the above, you could not see or shoot this target sitting; the exception was in one corner of the FFP box. Many teams spotted the target but didn't find it in the scope because they set up to shoot to low. This target only had about 4 impacts.
    T1 from a standing position, the target was primarily hidden by the branches above. It was also set to appear like the trees would cause interference from above. It was vertically, small enough that it presented a ranging issue if a wide PLRF beam provided a return off the branches above, but too close for the arc of the incoming bullet to be an issue.
    T2 and T3 had the bottoms of the targets obscured by the trees and shot best by using a hold under POA of .2mil, or just holding the POA at the visual impairment line.
    T4 was a wind problem. Holding into the trees should not have been difficult, but more of a mind game.

    Recapping the three major skill tests built into this stage:
    1. Know when and how to use a terrain map to track targets presented in complicated or illogical shooting orders.
    2. Understand how best to use your rangefinder, know the beam size, and confirm the location in your PLRF. The shooters without PLRFs with really tight beams, like a terapin or newer Leicas, needed to use the ranging techniques described earlier because the trees often returned a distance closer than the targets were set. (Tip - know your PLRFs beam width a reticle alignment, more on that in another segment)
    3. When setting up for the initial spotting of targets, think about the difference in spotting height vs. shooting height. (Tip - it is almost always safer, faster and easier to default to a higher shooting position during the initial setup, more on that in another segment) In this stage, 4 of 5 targets that were the best shot standing even though the FFP looked perfect for shooting sitting. A lot of teams took the bait of the relatively flat FFP and set up sitting. It that worked well for the first target T1, and maybe even slightly serviceable for T2 through T4, but a handicap. T5 was to force a tripod height change, and this would be best performed as a team. But that is a bit more complicated. (Tip - more on Tripod marking, deployment and spotting height as it relates to setting up a tripod in another segment)
    Take a quick step back to the title of the stage, “In the Trees” and the note below it (don’t get in the weeds); all the targets where nesting inside or next to the trees and if you set up siting in the weeds, you’d not see every target. That’s kinda the theme.

    Again, there are more ways to skin a cat, but this illustrates my intent and the general flavor of the challenges in the match. Most are super straight forward, with just one or two targets that take a bit of thinking. If you can understand this stage, you'll be very well prepared for any other stage.

    Feel free to ask questions and make suggestions or comments. Maybe we can get someone who shot this stage to chime in..

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    Diver160651

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    Finished the first stage debrief description post #35.

    Will cover either PLRF or Tripod use as a more general top next, followed by a super fun New stage for 2020..
     
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    seansmd

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    I found on that stage keeping the LRF in scanning mode near to far over there target and back allowed me to see the two berms, and the occasional in between which was the target.
     
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    Diver160651

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    I found on that stage keeping the LRF in scanning mode near to far over there target and back allowed me to see the two berms, and the occasional in between which was the target.
    What range finder did you have?? Was it hard or slow to get the a solid return?

    have you used any other PLRFs that might have worked better or worse?

    Please share what you could have done better or what you did that really worked, like the scan mode.
     
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    tob5

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    Checking in on this thread for 2020 .
    I shot last year's match and returning again this year . Diver thanks for all the great info regarding stage layout and your mind is crafty ,love it .

    You anticipating and knowing our faults and to trip us up,amazing . Looking forward to get further info on this thread . and looking forward to November. Taking notes on this for sure.
    Tob5
     
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    seansmd

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    I have the leica 2800.com, turned off the Bluetooth, scan is fast easy to get solid reading short then, slowly move up with the lrf on the tripod until it changes, then move back, then move past, kind of bracket the target.
     
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    Diver160651

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    I have the leica 2800.com, turned off the Bluetooth, scan is fast easy to get solid reading short then, slowly move up with the lrf on the tripod until it changes, then move back, then move past, kind of bracket the target.
    So in “scan mode” you are instantly getting feedback but doing basically what I described correct?

    As you know the 2800 has one on the best hardware controlled beams out, along with the terapin they make. That certainly gives you an edge lazing thru the loops in the trees.

    The Sigs have a scan mode too, but the beam is rather large and software gated. I bet your technique would help with the Sig as well. It might just take a bit longer or much harder if the loop was tight.

    When we talk about range finders, confirming the beam location, showing a ghetto method and the NV method, and what to do if the target is too small and sky-lined, maybe you could come up with some pictures, and example to post the scanning feature and technique you use.

    @seansmd I think you have been drafted :)
     
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    johnrice

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    on the above tgt and 2 hills drawing above. laser set to scan, i start well below tgt and graduly move the laser up and over the tgt.
    on the first slope below the tgt the ranges will display graduly, 240, 242 244 250 at some point jump 420 and jump again at rear hill 580 584 590 600.
    i would take the 420 as tgt.
     

    seansmd

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    on the above tgt and 2 hills drawing above. laser set to scan, i start well below tgt and graduly move the laser up and over the tgt.
    on the first slope below the tgt the ranges will display graduly, 240, 242 244 250 at some point jump 420 and jump again at rear hill 580 584 590 600.
    i would take the 420 as tgt.
    Well described.
     

    Diver160651

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    I think that technique works well when the target is separated with some space but in front and behind. I think it falls down when you have a lot of items creating dead space relatively close and hard to define, especially when targets are at ranges where they are very distance sensitive.

    Here is an example, where scan mode really is no substitute for a controlled beam on a tripod. There are tons of rollers hiding dead space, yet it looks relatively flat.
    Rollers-Desert.png

    But I am jumping the gun on this one. I want to start tripods before I dive too deep on the PLRFs, but maybe I should rethink the order?
     
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    seansmd

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    Agreed, no one answer fits all scenario, you need to evaluate what will produce returns and then use process of elimination to confirm your target.
     
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    johnrice

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    i shoot alot on public lands in nevada much like the picture above, assuming the white spot is the tgt and i cant get a hit on the range finder. i would range that big bush and estimate distance from bush to tgt and add the two together.
     

    Diver160651

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    I am not attempting to teach people how to shoot, everyone on youtube is doing that, but rather show a few tips to consider if you are interested in increasing your speed or reducing your wobble zone when shooting from a tripod. Your final body position is going to be unique to you, maybe your hips are a bit less bent, whatever, but if you can grasp the ideas, I believe it will be helpful. Even if just one tip saves you a few seconds, it might make a difference in a hunt or during a field match. Any time you save, or complexity you remove from your tripod set up in the field, allows you to use more of your brain to problem solve, break a better shot and make your outing more enjoyable.

    We'll take more about beams. I believe the Leopold, I think, is a circular around 4MOA; While I had an older one, I have not seen one under NV or know the true specs.

    My Old Vectronix 25C was .7mil x 1.7mil, and the Leica and new Terrapins are .5mil x 1.2mil. Side note, the Terrapins seem to have more power, but slower and heavier. Personally, a vertically thin beam that is wider (landscape) is more natural for me to work with.

    I really was not planning on getting into a comparison post, as those are everywhere. In the upcoming thread, I want to focus on how to figure out where the beam "is" to use the range finder more effectively or simply with more confidence. Nothing is earth-shattering, but maybe helpful to someone getting into their first field match. It is super important to know the size, direction of the beam divergence as well as the shape.
     
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