- Thread starter TurboTrout
- Start date
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,650
- 17,567
Oh stop it. We all know training is a formality if you have gucci gear
Taught to Soldiers, cadets and basic trainees. Totally tracking, this conversation just brought back some fond memories.
All the fun was on MSR Tampa, we had 100% IED rates on every mission.
The only thing worse than an IED going off is waiting on side of road for EOD to come 8 hours later to clear it. Better off just needing new paint job on the armored M915s.
The only thing worse than an IED going off is waiting on side of road for EOD to come 8 hours later to clear it. Better off just needing new paint job on the armored M915s.
I too have had the privledge of an IED strike on Tampa. Good times.
My TC almost lost his leg. Shrapnel in ankle and exploded battery juice all over the wound. Days before we got the Frag 5 kits installed to cover under the doors
Isn't that the route that crossed the highway and went south of Sadr City? But was north of FOB Liberty?Route Plutos was all the rage in 05-06
We had a convoy come into my COP that had been hit by an EFP. Luckily the TC was a shitbag (for him) and was laid back in the seat ( probably sleeping) so the EFP only took off part of his ass. We stuck him on a BW Little bird to evac him to the CSH at the Green Zone.
All of our KIA/WIA were either in hilbilly armorerd hunvees or people getting out of trucks and hit with secondaries.
We had a dude hit a tank mine with the M915 and both walked away unscathed.
You would be up in the turret with the shield and from your Stomach to your thighs where the door armor started , there was nothing between you but plastic in the 998s.
Hundreds of people died unnecessarily because they let people leave the wire in vehicles that were never designed for actual combat (Basically CUCV replacements for base movements)
All the MRAPS and shit started showing up and they replaced the humvees with armorted LMTV"s at the end of the deployment, but you cant unring that bell.
I saw units putting ice chests on the outside of their doors to help provide protection. They thought they could cool the EFP projectiles and stop them.
We didn't get our frag 5 kits until mid 06, but my primary threat was EFP's and nothing stopped those.
I feel ya. Just hit 18yrs. Almost done!!!!
Luckily the EFP's did not start becoming common until the end of the deployment. Most were aimed to take out the driver/TC of a humvee so if you were in something big, then you were fine or something high off the ground, they would just take out the axle instead of the cab.
Some good news, the guy who set of the IED that killed my buddy and wounded a few more was quickly found by the 3rd ID along with his 2 sons.
They got a quick trial and all 3 were hung, which is much better than if our unit (which was spooled up to go after them) got ahold of them.
Fallen Heroes Memorial: Army Staff Sgt. Michael J. McMullen
www.fallenheroesmemorial.com
Some good news, the guy who set of the IED that killed my buddy and wounded a few more was quickly found by the 3rd ID along with his 2 sons.
They got a quick trial and all 3 were hung, which is much better than if our unit (which was spooled up to go after them) got ahold of them.
Couldn't you just put it in the safe when you got out of bed? Asking for a friend.
You could, but in my experience human complacency takes over eventually. Doing the right thing needs to last more than a few weeks, or even a few years. The reality is, people in general can always talk themselves into excuses of why they didn’t do something they were suppose to. It takes but a minute for you to come here on the internet and claim to be able to make a life long dedication, but in practice, often the reality doesn’t meet the expectation.
Lol shit I wasn't even paying attention to that. I was more just listening to the perks of a rifle caliber over pistol caliber part. A.D.D. is a pain lol.
There was a VBIED that occurred in Baghdad killing some guys and was caught on film. We wound up catching the guy that triggered it.
The crappy one was when LTC Finken, LTC Kruger and SSG Gage were killed. That one hit me pretty hard, I really like LTC Finken, he was a really cool guy!
I just came across this thread, I tried not to post......but ........there's a wide array of opinions, thoughts and experiences.
I'm not LE or mil and never have been.
For me......the most valuable tool is mindset.
Mindset is truly one of, if not THE, biggest factor in getting us through situations. (I'll circle.back to this)
I'll go over a few legit situations I've been through...and try to no get long winded.
My main reason for posting is to make people stop and think. Questions are rhetorical but any comment and feedback is absolutely welcomed, no matter how harsh
In 2007 I was in Atlanta and was over at my 2x buddies' apartment. I'm near front door at a desk where there computer was setup. I hear 3x loud bangs then a 4th. The bangs were the front door of the apartment below me getting kicked ......I could feel them too...and the 4th time the door busted open. This was 3pm in broad daylight. Thankfully, the person had an alarm set and it went off with loud sirens as soon as door was kicked in. The perpetrator ran as soon as the alarm went off.
A couple months later........my girlfriend (now wife) returned to her apartment after class. We were only gone about 2 hours since we had been there in her apt for lunch. I stick key in door and it immediately felt weird, I look up and notice the door frame is broke. I did NOT go in, but backed up, got safe and called cops.
These were all "high end" apartments.......not in the ghetto and all "gated".
A few months after that, we find out our buddy living up north of Atlanta in a "nice" area ended up in an altercation that could have resulted in his death. Once again.....a "high end" apartment complex with a gate that residents opened by clicking a wireless remote. It was a common theme at that time that assholes and bad actors had discovered that if you just ride someone's ass with your vehicle almost touching yours....they could just follow you in. Well our buddy's brother was at Gate to enter and noticed someone riding his ass. This rubbed him the wrong way and he made the decision to open gate.....edge up some then hit the brakes and force the person behind him to stop or get their car schwacked by the gate arm swinging down. He proceeds to go on and park.....isn't even out of his car before the multiple dudes who were in the SUV he "blocked" at the Gate are yanking him out of his car and beating him down.....the kind where you get your faced kicked in and are within an inch of receiving the next blow that could be the one you don't ever wake up from.
The next scenario is prolly most relevant to this thread:
I'm asleep from getting home and working a 2nd shift.....it's about 0530.
I'm literally woken up to UNMISTAKABLE footsteps in my kitchen and coming my way. I sit up, fling covers off and grabbing the gun that's one step away from my bed. Now with gun in hand my wife yells "it's my mom! It's my MOM!!" My mother in law was dropping something off on her way into work. She has a key and that's why I never heard any "breaking in."
For anyone, no matter who you are, what your experience is......and especially those with grandiose ideas of "how it will go down" ........when the shit is hitting the fan and you're literally waking up to bad things going down......it's a TOTALLY different scenario.
Next situation:
I'm with my family in my f150 going to a dinner place we enjoy. When I pulled into parking lot and drove around (multi business parking lot) I noticed 2x sketch looking dudes wearing jackets and hoodies in 95F with the sun shining. I pull on around and back into a parking spot, leave truck running and put eyes on 2x dudes. As soon as I had started to park......they were on foot and walking our way. Kids start to get out and I sternly put a vocal indicator of everyone sit still. I've got dark tinted windows.....dudes had no idea how many or who was in my truck...yet proceed to walk towards us. When they get about 20ft away and start trying to get me to roll window down.......I've already got truck back into DRIVE and simply hit the gas and got out FAST.
How often is a "bad scenario" going to unfold and play out just like you thought? Most likely never......
Often, these situations happen when it's the last thing you're expecting to happen that day.......
One thing not mentioned much in here is having lights. Having a weapon mounted light as well as a standalone flashlight is a choice of mine. You want a light to properly identify anything you don't want to shoot....like a child or family member.
Mental toughness and agility is KING. This is what will drive any physical actions.
Question:
Regardless of can/no can, rifle or pistol.......what is your game plan when you get tackled from the side from the dude you never saw?
Jiu jutsu is awesome for SO many reasons. Not only will it better prepare you for hand to hand combat, but it humbles you and also allows you to remain calm or calmer than you'd normally be. When you're new and rolling with a purple belt.......when he/she ends up on your back .....it's much better to remain calm, breathe and think......if you spaz out....you're just getting choked out WAY faster.
Additionally, being physically fit could be what saves your life and your family's life..........ask yourself......am I prepared?
Grappling/mma/ any hand to hand training will VASTLY improve your mind game. You're much better prepared mentally and physically for all situations when you're training regularly and are getting pounded/smashed and "drug out into deep water" and shit isn't going ANYTHING like you "planned."
There's been times when I've grabbed a gun immediately and also when I escaped/avoided.
Everything is situational. Don't "get ready" but "be ready" is an idea I like.
If you're truly justified.......I'd rather face a jury of 12 vs the group of 6-8 laying me 6 feet deep. Just know and think about if you're ready to live and that may cost you $200k-$700k+ in legal fees......but I'd rather be here to raise my kids.
Also: I have tinnitus.......if you can avoid it ....avoid it.....not fun to live with.
I'm not LE or mil and never have been.
For me......the most valuable tool is mindset.
Mindset is truly one of, if not THE, biggest factor in getting us through situations. (I'll circle.back to this)
I'll go over a few legit situations I've been through...and try to no get long winded.
My main reason for posting is to make people stop and think. Questions are rhetorical but any comment and feedback is absolutely welcomed, no matter how harsh
In 2007 I was in Atlanta and was over at my 2x buddies' apartment. I'm near front door at a desk where there computer was setup. I hear 3x loud bangs then a 4th. The bangs were the front door of the apartment below me getting kicked ......I could feel them too...and the 4th time the door busted open. This was 3pm in broad daylight. Thankfully, the person had an alarm set and it went off with loud sirens as soon as door was kicked in. The perpetrator ran as soon as the alarm went off.
A couple months later........my girlfriend (now wife) returned to her apartment after class. We were only gone about 2 hours since we had been there in her apt for lunch. I stick key in door and it immediately felt weird, I look up and notice the door frame is broke. I did NOT go in, but backed up, got safe and called cops.
These were all "high end" apartments.......not in the ghetto and all "gated".
A few months after that, we find out our buddy living up north of Atlanta in a "nice" area ended up in an altercation that could have resulted in his death. Once again.....a "high end" apartment complex with a gate that residents opened by clicking a wireless remote. It was a common theme at that time that assholes and bad actors had discovered that if you just ride someone's ass with your vehicle almost touching yours....they could just follow you in. Well our buddy's brother was at Gate to enter and noticed someone riding his ass. This rubbed him the wrong way and he made the decision to open gate.....edge up some then hit the brakes and force the person behind him to stop or get their car schwacked by the gate arm swinging down. He proceeds to go on and park.....isn't even out of his car before the multiple dudes who were in the SUV he "blocked" at the Gate are yanking him out of his car and beating him down.....the kind where you get your faced kicked in and are within an inch of receiving the next blow that could be the one you don't ever wake up from.
The next scenario is prolly most relevant to this thread:
I'm asleep from getting home and working a 2nd shift.....it's about 0530.
I'm literally woken up to UNMISTAKABLE footsteps in my kitchen and coming my way. I sit up, fling covers off and grabbing the gun that's one step away from my bed. Now with gun in hand my wife yells "it's my mom! It's my MOM!!" My mother in law was dropping something off on her way into work. She has a key and that's why I never heard any "breaking in."
For anyone, no matter who you are, what your experience is......and especially those with grandiose ideas of "how it will go down" ........when the shit is hitting the fan and you're literally waking up to bad things going down......it's a TOTALLY different scenario.
Next situation:
I'm with my family in my f150 going to a dinner place we enjoy. When I pulled into parking lot and drove around (multi business parking lot) I noticed 2x sketch looking dudes wearing jackets and hoodies in 95F with the sun shining. I pull on around and back into a parking spot, leave truck running and put eyes on 2x dudes. As soon as I had started to park......they were on foot and walking our way. Kids start to get out and I sternly put a vocal indicator of everyone sit still. I've got dark tinted windows.....dudes had no idea how many or who was in my truck...yet proceed to walk towards us. When they get about 20ft away and start trying to get me to roll window down.......I've already got truck back into DRIVE and simply hit the gas and got out FAST.
How often is a "bad scenario" going to unfold and play out just like you thought? Most likely never......
Often, these situations happen when it's the last thing you're expecting to happen that day.......
One thing not mentioned much in here is having lights. Having a weapon mounted light as well as a standalone flashlight is a choice of mine. You want a light to properly identify anything you don't want to shoot....like a child or family member.
Mental toughness and agility is KING. This is what will drive any physical actions.
Question:
Regardless of can/no can, rifle or pistol.......what is your game plan when you get tackled from the side from the dude you never saw?
Jiu jutsu is awesome for SO many reasons. Not only will it better prepare you for hand to hand combat, but it humbles you and also allows you to remain calm or calmer than you'd normally be. When you're new and rolling with a purple belt.......when he/she ends up on your back .....it's much better to remain calm, breathe and think......if you spaz out....you're just getting choked out WAY faster.
Additionally, being physically fit could be what saves your life and your family's life..........ask yourself......am I prepared?
Grappling/mma/ any hand to hand training will VASTLY improve your mind game. You're much better prepared mentally and physically for all situations when you're training regularly and are getting pounded/smashed and "drug out into deep water" and shit isn't going ANYTHING like you "planned."
There's been times when I've grabbed a gun immediately and also when I escaped/avoided.
Everything is situational. Don't "get ready" but "be ready" is an idea I like.
If you're truly justified.......I'd rather face a jury of 12 vs the group of 6-8 laying me 6 feet deep. Just know and think about if you're ready to live and that may cost you $200k-$700k+ in legal fees......but I'd rather be here to raise my kids.
Also: I have tinnitus.......if you can avoid it ....avoid it.....not fun to live with.
You raise some valid points. As a use of force trainer I've always had my students sit for 5 minutes and based on their individual circumstances to imagine what such a situation be like and what they wil do to cope with it. After they've done that I tell them it won't happen that way. Sometimes you see it coming and have some time to react or withdraw before you have to fight. Sometimes a fight is like a car accident, you don't see it coming and it's over just that fast. It will probably happen when your distracted doing what you do, Sometimes not. You make a mistake that could cost you your life. You should always have your weapon within reach, not across the room. Be able to put your hand on it or at least open a night table draw or whatever container you store it in. It should be loaded and ready to use. Your not going to have the time to load and make ready. Having the mindset that this isn't a toy and a game is nesissary and can make all the difference. Based on my years in law enforcement enforcement I can tell that in 7 out of 10 times you will know or even live with the person you have to fight with or even end up having to shoot. Have a less lethal option available to you especially when away from home. Especially KNOW THE LAWS where you live and work. True that it's better not to be injured or killed, but spending most if not all the rest of your life in prison is not a very attractive outcome either. You may think you did the right thing but will potentially a trial Jury see it this way? Learning and understanding use of force laws is just as important as any other skills you need to survive. There are several insurance companies that offer policies that cover the staggering legal costs of defending yourself if necessary. These could easily get to $500,000 + for the type of attorney(s) that you need to probably keep you from being convinced and sent to prison. I have such insurance. For the annual sum of $500 I have $6 million worth of coverage. Money potentially well spent. Remember this you can be completely innocent of any wrong doing and you still have a 10% chance of being convicted. Trial Juries are dangerous and unpredictable.
What do you consider to be the above average intruder? The laws that apply to the use of force are the same regardless of the individual (s) involved. Their actions will determine your threat level and nesissary respons to it. Your actions have to be both proportionate and reasonable. Reasonable does not have to be perfect only what would be considered reasonable to the average person of normal sensibilities.
It was a joke about the kitted up guy.
An above average threat to me is someone who has nothing to loose to answer your question. Lot of people I’d like to punch in the past, but I have a career and a family. Just not worth it to me because I have stuff I can loose. A person that doesn’t have anything to loose is a dangerous person because you don’t know what they will do just for the fuck of it.
As a long time retired Cop I dealt with a lot of nothing to lose hard cases. The ones that ain't going back to prison and the phyopaths that don't give a fuck about their own lives let alone yours. They are very dangerous. Even though they don't respect the rule of law we have to.
Just like the man whose family is/means everything to him and he would kill the world if it meant their safety and happiness. Some peoples duty and responsibility plays past the rule of law.
Tampering with evidence is still a felony even if the shooting is entirely justified. That would be an absolutely terrible decision.
Not if nobody knows…
I’m a cop, if I showed up to the aftermath of a justified shooting and the victim was holding an AR with a Surefire muzzle device, who am I to assume he had an RC2 on when rounds were fired?
Maybe he wanted the loud and proud route and kept the can off. Now yeah sure if I arrive and the suppressor is on, then yeah neither he nor I are removing that can.
What someone doesn’t know won’t hurt them. This is not legal advise, do what you feel best.
That is all well and good, but who's going to protect your family while your spending most of the rest of your life in prison. The point is learn and know the laws in your state on the use of force especially deadly force. Get quality professional training, aquire top shelf equipment and train train train. Their are several companies that offer insurance that will cover the leagl fees for competent attorneys to defend you in the very posablilty you end up in front of a trial Jury. Trial Juries are dangerous and unpredictable. You can be completely innocent of any wrong doing and you still have a 10% chance of being convicted of manslaughter or murder..the cost of a competent legal defense can easily cost north of $500,000. I don't know about you but I don't have that much in my piggy bank. I read posts all the time on this forum on this topic. All the chest pounding and I blow that SOB up if he breaks into my house. Really? Consult a good criminal defense attorney or better yet a prosecutor about the reality of doing that. In my many years in law enforcement I've seen more times than I can remember what happened to people that acted like this is the old west and did the wrong things. Believe it or not like it or not that's just the way it is. I personally don't care what you do. If you fuck this up it's not going to be me doing the prison time. The times I had to use deadly force I never ended up in front of a trial Jury because I did it right. I know the laws and how not to step over the lines.
The last thing anyone wants to do is to show up to a scene like that and have to arrest the victim and charge him with a felony. Doing anything other than creating distance, reporting the incident to the police, and lawyering up is stupid.
The problem with your position is that anything that tampers with the scene is going to make it look like the victim has something to hide. That is never a position to be in.
I doubt if I had to shoot someone, that I'd be in any position to think rationally about anything other than breaking tunnel vision and making sure my family was okay. The idea of putting away a suppressor (or even getting to a long gun in time) in the few seconds you might have to defend yourself in this scenario is more call of duty than reality.
Me personally, I would prefer not to ever be placed in that situation. Even if I thought I was justified in using deadly force, I would do it only as a last resort for reasons that your post makes very clear. Unless it's a cut and dry scenario and your life depended on it, people will come along and second guess every aspect of your decision. No thanks.
Use of force incident are very rarely "cut and dry ". You all have to get your minds around that you probably be arrested or at least detained for questioning. The advice against talking to police only has value to your defense after you have called 911. When you call 911 you are talking to the police. Stick to the basics. You were attacked and forced to defend yourself. You want medical attention immediately. If they transport you to the E.R. the city or town has to pay for the ambulance ride. If they tell you to meet them at the Hospital your not under arrest at this point. After being treated and released if you haven't been admitted the police will detain you for questioning. At this point you'll need legal counsel. Remember refusal to speak at all to the police once they make contact with you will create in the minds of them a prosecutor and probably any trial Jury that you knew you did something wrong. Altering evidence is a felony. Even when you really were legitimately defending yourself your on thin ice, don't make it worse than it already is. If you run or alter the crime scene your admitting even you knew you committed a crime (s). One of the very first things I learned as a Police Officer was nothing is what it appears to be. What looks like really lawful nesissary us of force very often in fact is murder. Police, Prosecutors, Judges know that 90% of what it was claimed self defense is Bullshit the lawyer told them to say that, 7 ot of 10 of these incidents involve people that know each other to one degree or another. I personally investigated 3 incidents that deadly force was used 2 of which involved a fatality. The suspect told a very convincing story that on it's surface fit the crime scene. After the investigation was completed it was determined that wasn't so and the suspects were charged and convicted. The one (#1) that stands out in my memory involved a man who got several thousand dollars in debt to one of the local leg breakers who had a well known reputation for working people over that were slow to pay up. The suspect and his girlfriend lured the victim to a motel room promising to pay. When the victim arrived the suspect said fuck you I ain't paying you and slammed the door. He retreated to the opposite end of the room and drew his pistol. When the victim kicked open the door and took one step over the threshold the suspect shot him 12 times. He died the next day before he could be interviewed. The suspect and his girlfriend told the same story several times, the crime scene matched the story, the victims conduct was consistent with previous activities and arrests. The local prosecutor didn't even take the case up. Eight months later the girlfriend came in with her lawyer and told detectives the real story. Very little is what it appears to be.
Use of force incidents involving innocent, non-police people actually are routinely pretty simple (police uses of force are generally complicated because the police can use self defense even if they are the initial aggressor, because that's what we pay them to do). The one you describe in your post sounds drug related to me.
As to whether you're arrested or not, it doesn't matter. Whether you're in custody or not, any statement you make, however innocent, can be used against you. Being arrested, detained, nor not, very seldom ever matters in that.
A trial jury will never hear anyone comment on your silence and if that happens, any resulting conviction will be reversed. Commenting on a criminal defendant's silence is a very serious violation of a defendant's constitutional rights. 99% of the time, if that happens in a criminal trial, the judge will declare a mistrial.
Use of force incidents among civilians are anything but if ever simple. In my 40 years as a Police Officer, most of them have a lot of moving parts. 7 out of 10 of them involved people that knew each other on one level or another many being domestic relations. Evidence introduced at trial that a jury can hear is ultimately up to the trial judge. Any testimony from police about your conduct is potentially on the table. It's an absolute right to have an attorney present when being interviewed/questioned by the police and one that you would be very smart in exorcizing. The refusal to give even the most basic explanation of your actions even with council will hurt you in court. It would cause the 12 reasonable people to think even you thought you did wrong. While it's unwise for the defendant to give testimony it sometimes does happen. If so your the one that opens that door. Your innocence is not an absolute to the Jury. Your attorney as to construct your claim of self defense to the Jury, they just aren't going to take your word for it. Your refusal to cooperate in anyway with the police investigation will make it difficult. If your not guilty of any wrong doing there is no wrong doing to admit to. You are at some point during the investigation going to have to give a detailed accounting of your actions. Your attorney will guide you through this process. Not doing this will probably get you an indictment for manslaughter/murder. Remember at the Grand Jury phase of this process only the state is heard. If you refuse to offer an explanation of your actions all the state has to show is that you did for some reason intentionally kill the victim (s). At this point you will be formally charged and go to trial. The police have your gun, whiteness and all the physical evidence that they need to convict you. If you offer no justification for your actions your doing the Prosecutors job for him. It's not so much what or how you tell the police the story it's at when you tell them the story. Judges don't often declare mistrials for evidentiary reasons. The only time that is likely is there is some level of misconduct by police or the prosecutor. What is more likely to happen in the remarks you made is that when the case goes to the Jury the Judge in the instructions he/she gives them will order them to disregard anything the prosecutor said about your not cooperation with the investigation. Appeals are not automatically given on conviction. You have to petition the state appellate court showing that a significant fault exists that lead to a conviction that would otherwise not likely have occurred if that had not been there. If they agree then you will get a knew trial and it starts all over again. You very rarely get out of jail free and get $200. When a Police Officer makes contact with a suspect for whatever reason they are not considered the aggressor. As you point out we pay them to contact/confront suspects on our behalf. If at any point the officer decides to make an arrest or is attacked by the suspect the officer can use what ever reasonable level of force is necessary to overcome the level of force the suspect is using to resist or escape arrest. This can also involve deadly force. A civilian can only use equal force in most instances because the have no rights to make a custody arrest of another person.
????
the Thread has gone off course…the OP asked what distance to sight his optic and if he should use a suppressor or not
A great deal of this is false.
I am not ever giving the police a statement about my actions, ever. In 40 years as a police officer, you probably learned the Miranda warning. It means what it says. If a suspect's lawyer made it through law school, I'm sure that lawyer is smart enough to tell his client to never, ever talk to the police. No good defense attorney would allow his client to make any statement. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to piece together the facts without me. Anything I were to say would only be used against me and could never be used to help me, because it is hearsay. No person who passed junior high should give a statement to the police.
I don't know what your state is like, but in my state, the grand jury has to hear about a legitimate self defense claim, and there has to be probable cause to overcome that claim for a person to be charged. People forget that legitimate self defense negates ALL criminal liability. That doesn't mean the person won't be indicted, but it doesn't seem like you recognize that all of the burden is on the government. At trial, they have to prove that I didn't act in self defense. It doesn't mean the jury can't get it wrong, but they get it right most of the time. The reason I wouldn't use deadly force unless it was an absolute last resort is that "most of the time" is not good enough for me to gamble the rest of my life on.
If someone comments on a defendant's silence, a mistrial will be virtually guaranteed. That is a very very serious violation of a defendant's constitutional right against involuntary self incrimination. That is such a bedrock principle of criminal law that I would be willing to bet it was commonplace to declare those types of mistrials even before Miranda v. Arizona was decided. A witness commenting on the silence of a criminal defendant IS misconduct by the prosecutor. Even if not deliberately illicited, all witnesses should be prepared to never offer such testimony unless the person questioning them is the defense attorney.
Appeals are a matter of right everywhere. They are absolutely "automatically given on conviction." That doesn't mean the person gets a new trial--that is a separate matter. But there is nowhere in America where a convicted citizen cannot get an appeal as of right. Nowhere. Your statements are absolutely wrong.
It sounds like your teachers were good but not great. I have been teaching police academies for a long time. I would give you a C-.
You have very little understanding of how the criminal justice and grand jury system actually works. You do not enjoy the automatic right to appeal a conviction in a criminal trial. As I've said you must petition the state appellate court showing that a significant flaw existed in your original trial. As I said when you call 911 you are talking to the police. When I arrive at the location your going to have to tell me why you called me. A good example would be I was attacked by that individual and forced to defend myself. At this point you shut up and ask for medical treatment and then contact an attorney. I also pointed out the grand jury only hears one side of the story, it ain't yours. If you want to avoid indictment a well crafted statement with your attorney to law enforcement is your best way to avoid this. If you do end up in front of a trial jury your attorney is going to have to construct a defense for your actions the jury isn't going to just take your word for it. You forget the only thing the Prosecutor has to prove is that you killed the victim, that's all. Your attorney will have to convince the jury that you had a justification within the law to do so. This is what is called the burden of construction. Your refusal to make any statements with the benefits of council is something the jury will be aware of at trial simply because your attorney hasn't got one to introduce at trial. Your attorney has the right to motion for any exculpatory evidence the state has, but only what he/she asks for. The right to avoid self incriminating statements under the 5th amendment should be obvious to anyone that can read. That doesn't mean you should never make a truthful statement in the presence of your attorney. Even as a Police Officer I have to cooperate with the investigation. I was appointed legal counsel by the PBA and not required to make any statements for 72 hours. This isn't considered inculpatory evidence. This is the recommend duration of time to prosses in your mind what happened. Having been forced to use deadly force as a Cop on and off duty I'm telling you it won't go the way you seem to think it will. True you can stand mute on the manslaughter/murder charges you will definitely face by refusal to provide any evidence that could clear you of any wrong doing. If you do so your probably going to spend decades in prison. Don't for a second forget that trial Juries are dangerous and unpredictable. You can be completely innocent of any wrong doing and have a 10% chance of being convicted. As a Cop I'm not your friend. It's my job to prove that you committed a crime (s) if in fact that you did. Like I said all I have to prove is that you pulled the trigger, that's all. State laws and case law aren't very different from state to state aren't significantly different to think your particularly safe from prosecution in your particular state. I currently reside in New Hampshire. This state is not known for pursuing criminal action against civilians that have used force non deadly/deadly force as long as there was a lawful justification for it. Having spent 12 of my 40 years in law enforcement on the LAPD I can tell you that both as a Cop and civilian you had better be able to articulate why you did what you did to avoid criminal prosecution. My whole point is not to prove I'm smarter than you or anyone else. Both law school and years in law enforcement give me significant knowledge of how this works. You won't be able to get up in front of a jury and tell your story. Your attorney won't let that happen. He/She can't control what the prosecution will ask you.
Self defense does not automatically absolve you of all criminal liability unless you can prove to the trial Jury that is why you pulled the trigger. What you believe was self defense may not be what a trial jury believes was self defense. Nothing I've written in these posts is untrue. You may like to believe it is because it disproves what you believe how the criminal justice system works. Some states do have laws absolving you of both criminal and civil liability in use of force for self defense. You will have to prove it was self defense (the burden of construction). This is that bump in the road most people don't understand. I didn't invent the criminal justice system. If you keep and carry any type of weapon or fighting skills for defense, learn the laws and how they work and how there applied.
You just quoted yourself brah....
That was a P.S. I can't stress enough how important it is to have the level of legal training as well as shooting and fighting training you need to survive both the physical fight and potentially the legal fight that is likely to fallow. Spending most of the rest of my life in prison, probably with friends or relatives of the one (s) you were forced to fight isn't a very attractive prospect when it could have been prevented.
To answer the zero-rifle, 50, pistol cal-25, red dot pistol-15. On the first two, just know your barrel/sight offset--IF IT MATTERS. You would have at the muzzle 2-2.5 approx depending on mount height, do you think it matters? Yes, clearing cover with the barrel and making a close "hostage" shot are concerns and accounted for, not rocket science.
Test-ask a friend or family member come in the from door as you lie in bed, see how far you get vs them? What assets are in between you and the bad guy? You don't have as much time as you think if the bad guy has targeted you/family to intercept as they are moving directly to that point.
Remember, you are lying there asleep and it will take you at least 1-2 seconds to figure out wtf is happening.
Thoughts-sure if knowingly getting in a fight, jock up if you are able. Are you living so dangerous that your carry won't suffice for this? Remember weapon security also.
Test-ask a friend or family member come in the from door as you lie in bed, see how far you get vs them? What assets are in between you and the bad guy? You don't have as much time as you think if the bad guy has targeted you/family to intercept as they are moving directly to that point.
Remember, you are lying there asleep and it will take you at least 1-2 seconds to figure out wtf is happening.
Thoughts-sure if knowingly getting in a fight, jock up if you are able. Are you living so dangerous that your carry won't suffice for this? Remember weapon security also.
I've told you all the way it really is on the use of force especially deadly force. It's obviously something you didn't realize and don't understand. Contact a criminal defense attorney who specializes in use of force laws in your location. He,She will tell you pretty much what I've told you. Ignore what you've been told and you're family will be seeing you on visiting day in your state prison for probably the next 20 years of your life. You also are looking at north of 500k to afford a competent criminal defense team to have a chance to not be convicted. Trial costs alone are more than most of us can afford. I hold one of the insurance policies that will cover these expenses. I wish you luck. If you fuck this up your going to find yourself on the ass end of a very bad dream.LOL. He pulled a Haney.
I served my state as a prosecutor for over 8 years and I have done over 100 jury trials. I also have a doctorate in the subject. As such, I really don't care what you think about my knowledge of the system, because I have personally participated in more trials than the vast majority of people you will ever meet in your life. Your responses indicate what I would consider a grade school level understanding of the subject.
All criminal defendants are entitled to an appeal as of right in this country and the burden is always on the government to prove every element of the case. A criminal defense attorney has no burden at all and does not need to convince anyone of anything. A defendant does not need to "construct" a defense and it is actually a common strategy to not put on any defense and rest on their right and argue that the government has not met their burden of proof.
If I was involved in a self defense shooting, I would not make any statement. I would invoke my right to remain silent, cooperate with the officers to secure the scene, and inform them politely that I would not be making any statement to them at all. You can disagree with my strategy if you want, but prisons are full of stupid people who thought the smart decision was to give a statement to the police. In that scenario, the person would inevitably be under extreme stress and even if totally innocent, it's just too easy to say something that isn't quite 100% correct while under the fog of fear and adrenaline. If I need to give a statement, it'll be to the jury, on the witness stand, years later, where I've been thoroughly prepped and mocked by my attorney to ensure that the statement is delivered in precisely the manner I choose to testify about regarding my innocence. I definitely am not giving it to you at the scene after I just had to save my own life. I'm not sorry to say that I would absolutely not ever do that.
A cop's job is to document the scene and collect the evidence. It is not your job to prove anything. A proper investigation would be conducted without the predetermination of guilt that is present throughout your response to me. That is exactly why nobody should be talking to the police. Even if you're 100% innocent of any wrongdoing, they will begin with guilt and try to build a case around that presupposition. That works fine for most criminals because they are absolutely blatantly guilty. That doesn't work for innocent, decent people who were forced to defend their lives. When the police use deadly force on duty, they never give a statement the day of the incident. They are trained not to do so. Why we can't extend the same courtesy to our citizens who are put in the same shitty situations is beyond me, but the only way that is going to happen is to invoke your right to remain silent and unequivocally lawyer up immediately.
A statement by a suspect cannot be introduced into evidence by the defendant's lawyer at trial. It is hearsay. Statements by a party opponent are not hearsay and can be introduced by the government, but not by the defendant because the defendant is not his own party opponent. This is evidence rule 801. While every state has their own evidence rules, generally they follow the federal numbering system and your state likely has an identical rule. So your response that my lawyer wouldn't have a statement to introduce is nonsense, the government cannot comment on a suspect's silence and if they don't have a statement to introduce, there is no way for that to happen. The time for giving a statement is in the courtroom, after you've been prepared, and it is only then that the government gets to cross examine you, without knowing exactly what you will say. If you give a statement, the prosecutor gets all the time in the world to twist your statement into something that makes you look guilty, which is exactly what we do to liars who tell the police they are innocent where the evidence shows otherwise.
Having done plenty of this work, my suggestion to you is that if you have the experience you claim to have, you should rely very heavily on your prosecutors even during the investigation phase of your cases, because it is clear from your responses that 1) you don't understand evidence law and 2) you're not as familiar with trial procedure as you think you are. That's not really a surprise to me, but it also demonstrates why I would never, ever give a statement to the police other than the bare minimum to get them to show up, provide medical care, and to allow them to safely secure the scene.
While I am a lawyer, none of this is legal advice. I share my experience and how I would handle the situation because I have been on the government side before and I know how I would look at it from that angle. But personally, I hope I am never in that situation, because even if you execute every aspect of this perfectly, you may still end up in prison if the jury gets it wrong.
Having been through the process more than once personally and spent 40 years working within the system and two years of law school myself I also know what I'm talking about. As the old Attorney's saying goes "So you say" and your write I do think your full of shit
Sorry man, been there and done that. No way you made it through law school anywhere without knowing that appeals are of right. Even the shittiest law school in America would flunk out a student who failed that miserably.
I didn't say that appeals weren't the defendant's right. What I said was appeals go to the states appellant court. You don't get an automatic do over if your convicted. I can't believe you are who you say you are if you don't know this. You also don't seem to understand that all I need as the Prosecutor to obtain a conviction is to prove you pulled the trigger and the victim died as a result. It's up to you as the defendant to convince the jury you acted in self defense. The defendant has the burden of production to convince at least one of the 12 reasonable people on the jury your not guilty of manslaughter or murder. As the defendant you will need to satisfy the five elements of lawful use of deadly force. Immense, innocence, avoidance, proportionality, reasonable. If a prosecutor can disprove one of these your self defense claim goes away and you'll be convicted. States that have stand your ground laws take avoidance off the table, but a jury will still wonder why you didn't take obvious actions to avoid this incident. Don't talk to the cops advice in the moment is good advice because of the emotional, physical condition your probably going to be in. An excited utterance is an exception to the here say rule so long as it was voluntarily made by the defendant. I only have to advise the defendant of their rights when I question them about the incident. If your only being detained I don't have to do so because you're not under arrest. I haven't changed you with a crime (s) As a prosecutor I have unlimited resources to collect all there is to know about you. If you let it be commonly known you have animosity towards the victim personally or the type of person he/she was. Such testimony is not hear say because it was made under oath in court. The trial judge is unlikely to exclude si don't bet on it. If there are two or more eye witnesses that give sworn testimony against you, your in deep shit. There is also the issue of the north of $500k your going to have to spend on competent legal counsel. Can you make a $250k + bail your likely to get? Then there is any civil action that probably will fallow. I find it hard to believe that your for real if you don't know these facts of life. The moral of the story is get legal training as well as shooting and fighting training if you want to avoid 20+ years in prison if you fuck this up. I went to law school to be a better cop not an attorney.
You did say that an appeal is not automatic. That is wrong. Whether the appellate court grants the defendant a new trial requires the defendant to win the appeal. But if the appeal wasn't of right, they could just refuse to hear the appeal completely, which they cannot do. Everyone is entitled to one appeal. I'm surprised you're even still arguing about this. What you said is absolutely wrong.
At trial, the State bears the burden on all elements, including disproving a claim of self defense. The defendant does not have any burden to introduce evidence or prove anything, ever. A claim of self defense can even, in the right case, be brought without the defendant even testifying . Typically that will not work, but it is very fact-specific. If there's a video that the government brought into evidence that shows someone chasing you with a knife and you shooting them dead, the judge may allow the self defense instruction without the defendant even having to testify as to a subjective fear to warrant the use of deadly force, since it will be an obvious inference from the evidence. It all depends on what the evidence is at trial, which is all the more reason that you keep your mouth shut until you're able to see what the government has, so that if you choose to take the stand and explain yourself, you can do so with full knowledge of what is at stake if you choose to do so. Granted, in a legitimate self defense case, you should pray that you never ever see a jury trial. But if you do, the best chance of success comes from any statement you make being as consistent and believable as possible, and that will not happen if you're stupid enough to close off doors to effective defenses by speaking at the scene, especially if you say too much. That is why any defense attorney who isn't a total moron will tell you very clearly to not say a damn thing.
The use of force standards you are talking about apply to police officers (the long list of things needed for force to be used). Self defense laws vary by state. My state does not require any of those things, well, at least not in the manner you're describing. If any evidence exists of self defense, the government must disprove any reasonable theory of self defense for there to be a conviction. Lethal force self defense in my state requires some evidence of reasonable fear of a lethal threat or one that could cause a great bodily injury, which is something like your proportionality requirement, but it does not mean that lethal force cannot be used against non-lethal threats, just that one must reasonably fear death/serious injury to use the force. In some cases, that could be obvious, if someone is chasing the person with a fighting knife or trying to run them over with a car. In other cases, it could be far less obvious than that. It depends on the evidence. Which is why you keep your mouth shut.
Miranda applies to any time a person is "in custody." They do not need to be arrested. Whether a person is "detained" or "arrested" is a fourth amendment question. Miranda custody is a fifth amendment question. The two are not the same, and a person does not ever need to be arrested for Miranda to have applied. Miranda applies wherever a person who is 1) in custody is 2) interrogated. Typically, "custody" is "arrested." But many cases have existed where the person was never formally arrested, but Miranda applied, and the evidence was suppressed. I have experienced both sides of this, cases where the judge found that a person was "in custody" for Miranda purposes who really wasn't (in my opinion) and the other way around, where a person was not allowed to leave but where there wasn't sufficient evidence of "custody" and the evidence was allowed. Either way no police officer who has been properly trained would ever take that risk, although it happens all the time. I've also had cases where the police thought they gave a Miranda warning but forgot one part of the warning. The evidence was suppressed, because close enough doesn't work.
But you even bringing that up misses the point. The reason warnings must be given is to inform people of their rights, which includes explaining that anything they say can be used against them. The normally unspoken part of the warning is that it can never help them, because their statement is heresay. It is extremely unlikely that a statement from a defendant will ever be admissible if offered by that defendant, but that question is usually never answered because if there's a statement, even one that helps the defendant somehow, the state will likely offer it anyway, if for no other reason than that it closes off potential defenses any time someone tells the story.
As to all that other nonsense, if you think the prosecution has unlimited resources, I can tell you that I have personally experienced otherwise. If I am ever involved in a self-defense incident, I will pray every day that the government never chooses to charge me. Because if they do, even if I'm 100% innocent and have nothing to hide, there's always a possibility, however slight, that I ould be convicted even though I was innocent. And if you are convicted of a homicide, it is extremely likely that you are going to prison, maybe for the rest of your life. That is why deadly force is always a last resort. Because even if you can, doesn't mean you should, or that you won't suffer extreme consequences for your actions, even if they were prompted by a situation you did not choose. That is why I avoid dangerous situations, I do not go to the ghetto at night, for example.
All of this is a massive digression from two main points:
1. Never tamper with a crime scene, even if you're 100% innocent
and
2. Keep your mouth shut.
I'm not surprised that a cop would think otherwise, of course you're both used to people being stupid and talking, and you want them to talk. But our education system functioned at all in this country, every American would politely refuse to give any statement and make the government prove it. The prisons are full because fortunately, criminals are oftentimes too stupid to do so.
In the end, it's your life and your choices. Even career criminals accept their fate at the end of a trial. They know who they are. I doubt anyone who wants to read this website is that kind of person. But choices are what life is all about. Just because it is what I would do doesn't mean it's what you should do. That's why none of this is advice and shouldn't be regarded as such. It's just my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.
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I'm not going to keep my mouth shut. The 5 points I listed do not apply to a law enforcement officer. We get paid to confront suspects. We get paid to lay hands on a suspect if we believe we have probable cause to do so. A civilian can only use equal force to defend themselves. A law enforcement officer can use any reasonable force to overcome the unlawful force being used by the suspect(s) resistance to avoid arrest, escape or cause harm to another officer or civilian. If your what you say you are you should know that. The defendant should not take the stand unless his/her attorney believes it's the only way to convince the jury the plea of self defense is credible. As I've already said the defendant can not be compelled to give evidence. They can stand mute if they so choose. I've also said as the Prosecutor all I need to do is prove that the defendant pulled the trigger. Unless your attorney can build a credible claim of self defense (burden of production) your going to jail. As the Prosecutor I only have to give anything I have to the defense attorney only if he/she makes a motion of discovery for it. Any exculpatory evidence I have that would help won't get to the Jury unless you ask for it. You can bet any and all inculpatory evidence I have will. As a Police Officer I would normally give you your rights to start with so that I have the base covered. You don't seem to understand that a plea of self defense isn't by itself going to convince a jury that your not guilty of any wrong doing. Most cops, Prosecutors and Judges know that 90% of those are Bullshit. Their attorney tells them to enter that plea. Nobody is going to just take your word for it. Your attorney is going to have to convince the jury of this. Why do you think a good criminal defense attorney costs so much? I'll say it for the last time. Ant defendant has the right of appeal. What I said was that appeal is automatically granted by the appellate court. Your attorney has to prove that a significant flaw or misconduct occurred that influenced the outcome of your trial.
Your method of communication is pretty clear evidence that Downzero is in the right on this and is clearly more knowledgeable, even aside from the legitimate facts he's stated that counter your claims.
His information is articulated clearly (as one would expect from a lawyer), spelled properly and with good grammar, and is broken up into readable paragraphs with punctuation.
Yours, on the other hand, are massive walls of text that nobody is going to fully read, and are rife with spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors. None of that indicates that you're as educated as you claim to be, which puts in doubt the rest of your claims as well.
I know which one I believe, anyway.
Well good for you. Let's hope you don't have to find out the hard way. It ain't pretty and it's very expensive.
I appreciate the kind comments.
The real issue with all of this is that there are no answers. Nothing is guaranteed. The jury could always get it wrong. There are few things in this world more terrifying than going to prison, to me. I'd rather run away and look like a total pussy than have to even face that possibility.
These gun websites are full of tough guys who think it'd be so great to be in that situation. I know I spend every day of my life making an effort to avoid that like the plague. The criminal justice world is not somewhere any decent person ever wants to be.
