Rifle Scopes Perplexed about S&B

[pmclaine]

Its been a long time since I used a scope but I recently got back into them in a big way. I have a S&B 5-25 mounted on an LMT MWS. I think I understand the operation of turrets in so far as for elevation you dial up from 0 to raise the impact of your shot and for windage you dial in the direction of 1L or 1R from 0 to move the impact Left or Right.

I'm just learning my rifle and scope and have about 450 rounds on new equipment. Ive been noticing something strange with the scope windage workings. Im finding that if I dial toward one or the other direction I get the opposite result of what I want. I've asked questions on the forum before just to double check myself thinking maybe that the windage indications mean something other than what I had assumed - dial more R the point of impact will be right - and it has been confirmed that that is exactly how the scope is designed.

This is my set up at the 300 yard range.

I was trying something new with my trigger pull not really caring about point of impact, just groups. Most of my practice so far has been playing with the trigger and I haven't done much dialing. This plate tracks 15 shots. My aim point is the beige circle. I was shooting 1.9E/0W.

For shots 16-20 I repainted the plate. I fired 16, 17, 18 at 1.9E/.2R hoping to move my impact more toward center. Shots 19, 20 I made a dope change to 1.9E/.3R. I made my dope changes reading the H2CMR reticle.

Not much change with my dope changes. I decided to go bigger and try to raise the shot some. Shot 21 was fired at 2.4E/.7R. Shot 22 was fired at 1.9E/.7R. Both were misses left (from shooters perspective). I than swung the pendulum back the other way. Shot 23 was fired at 1.9E/.7L. Shot 24 was fired at 1.9E/.1L. Shot 25 was fired at 1.9E/.1L.

I think I'm holding my shots and not pulling, especially by the amount 23 flew right after dialing so much left. I don't know about the construction of a scope but can the internals be reversed so that dialing right moves the shot left?

I still think this is operator error but I'm just looking for some feedback. My groups are nothing spectacular but the only reason I missed the plate was due to a dope change and the results of that change were opposite of my expectations - I wanted to move right and the bullet went left. Just to make sure Im holding up both hand with index finger pointed toward the sky, thumb extended out 90 degrees - am I correct in believing that the hand that makes makes the letter L when you do this is your left hand?

 

[RonboF117]

I couldn't tell from your photo whether you have CW or CCW turrets. For example, if you have CCW turrets, as you turn the turret CCW the numbers keep getting higher. If this is the case, you "push" or "pull" the impacts to make them go where you want. It's as though you were turning a screw in and out of wood, and the screw head corresponds to your impacts on target. For example, you shoot three rounds and see they are .4 mils below the desired POI. If you have CCW turrets, you will turn the elevation turret .4 mils CCW. This brings the "head of the screw" higher and your impacts should now match POA.

If you ever get confused at the range and have CCW turrets, you can use the "right hand rule" to get you back on track. Using your RIGHT hand, point your thumb the direction you want the impacts to go and then curl your fingers closed. The direction your fingers go is the direction to turn the turrets.

 

[Bloodstriker]

I couldn't tell from your photo whether you have CW or CCW turrets. For example, if you have CCW turrets, as you turn the turret CCW the numbers keep getting higher. If this is the case, you "push" or "pull" the impacts to make them go where you want. It's as though you were turning a screw in and out of wood, and the screw head corresponds to your impacts on target. For example, you shoot three rounds and see they are .4 mils below the desired POI. If you have CCW turrets, you will turn the elevation turret .4 mils CCW. This brings the "head of the screw" higher and your impacts should now match POA.

If you ever get confused at the range and have CCW turrets, you can use the "right hand rule" to get you back on track. Using your RIGHT hand, point your thumb the direction you want the impacts to go and then curl your fingers closed. The direction your fingers go is the direction to turn the turrets.

This is the first time I've heard of this method. Thank you!

 

[pmclaine]

They are supposed to be CCW turrets. I don't do any changes by feel I read the dial and put it where I want it than double check.

I hadn't heard the "push/pull" concept of changing POI.

My 100 yard zero was set at 0 and 1.9 is usually good for 300 yards with different results depending on ammo/weather (.308 Atomic Ammunition, 168 Nosler CC over Varget in reloaded mixed NATO brass, 2600 FPS).

I started my session at 0 wind and when I wanted to move right I dialed toward 1R, which required I turn the turret CW. A graphic of the dial is like this

----1L


----0 (.1 mil marks not shown for clarity)


----1R

So not even considering "push/pull" my assumption is turning the turret toward R (clockwise) I should get POI movement right but that is not what I'm observing.

Your push/pull method is what I am observing though. If that is the way it works why wouldn't S&B reverse the markings so that the direction shown matched the turret operation? Is this typical of CCW turrets? Did I get a scope with the wrong turret on it?

 

[dbransco]

The "R" and "L" markings refer to reticle movement. In your case with your original impacts being left of target (for the sake of argument, lets say 0.1 mil), you would adjust by dialing 0.1 mil "L" (moving the reticle left to your impacts). Then on your following shots you aim on target and you essentially "pulled" your POI to the target.

 

[pmclaine]

The "R" and "L" markings refer to reticle movement. In your case with your original impacts being left of target (for the sake of argument, lets say 0.1 mil), you would adjust by dialing 0.1 mil "L" (moving the reticle left to your impacts). Then on your following shots you aim on target and you essentially "pulled" your POI to the target.

I asked about this before and was advised that L and R refer to shift of the bullet impact.

What you say is what I am experiencing. Kind of crazy engineering I don't care which way the reticle moves but I do care which way the bullet goes.

Ill have to check my elevation turret and see if it marked "UP". I don't doubt what you tell me but if the elevation turret is marked "UP" than moving in the direction of "UP" will bring my shot down?

 

[oldfatguy]

CCW turrets move the POI up when the elevation turret is turned CCW and RIGHT when the windage turret is turned CCW. Yes you can watch the reticle move in the opposite direction, but it is the POI of the bullet that matters and watching the reticle move only serves to confuse.

OFG

 

[hlee]

CCW turrets move the POI up when the elevation turret is turned CCW and RIGHT when the windage turret is turned CCW. Yes you can watch the reticle move in the opposite direction, but it is the POI of the bullet that matters and watching the reticle move only serves to confuse.

OFG

I think the problem is that the turret is marked L and R. When the turret is turned toward R, bullet impact moves left. If this is the case, the markings are counter intuitive. Even my bushnell moves bullet impact right when turned toward "R."

If it were me, I would. Move back to 100 yards and go through a tracking drill. It will allow a much easier confirmation of scope function.

 

[pmclaine]

I think the problem is that the turret is marked L and R. When the turret is turned toward R, bullet impact moves left. If this is the case, the markings are counter intuitive. Even my bushnell moves bullet impact right when turned toward "R."

If it were me, I would. Move back to 100 yards and go through a tracking drill. It will allow a much easier confirmation of scope function.

Yes this what I am experiencing. If I dial windage increasing R I get bullet impact left. It works opposite when dialing toward L. Just look how far right shot 23 impacted when I dialed 1.4 mils Left (from .7R).

I confess I never read the scope directions but seeing as they are in my data book less than 10 feet from me I may peruse them for some bedtime reading. If that is how S&B designs them I fine with it I just need to know that its as you state "counterintuitive".

When I grow up and become a German engineer I will design refrigerators that heat food, ovens that make ice, and a shitter that blasts waste all over your bathroom when you flush. The scope performs Im just finding the windage reaction odd and want to confirm I didn't get a turret from a CW scope installed somehow.

 

[oldfatguy]

Interesting that your PM II windage turret has an "R" and "L" on it. Just checked mine, double turn CCW, and there are no "L" markings on the windage turret. But there are 4 Rs with CCW arrows, two on each side of zero. No "up" or "down" on the elevation turret either. I might have an older model that is different from yours.

Which way does your windage move when you turn it CCW?

OFG

 

[pmclaine]

Which way does your windage move when you turn it CCW?

OFG

Counter clockwise would have me rolling the turret from 12 oclock to 6 oclock which by my little graphic of my turret shows Ill be entering into the 1L zone. As shot 23 shows making an adjustment into the 1L zone moves the impact of the bullet right.

The scope is a PMII with MTC, CCW and the RAL8000 ceracoat. An internet picture of the scope from the operator view

 

[hlee]

I think we need a picture of the turret markings...

 

[pmclaine]

Interesting.

This is a 3-20 and it looks like the windage knob has a reverse operation

 

[pmclaine]

You know what. Looking at it now the L and R must be independent of the numbers.

L with an arrow up means turn that direction (clockwise) to go left. Ditto R with the arrow down (counterclockwise).

What a dumb ass I am.

 

[Falsecrack]

Interesting that your PM II windage turret has an "R" and "L" on it. Just checked mine, double turn CCW, and there are no "L" markings on the windage turret. But there are 4 Rs with CCW arrows, two on each side of zero. No "up" or "down" on the elevation turret either. I might have an older model that is different from yours.

Which way does your windage move when you turn it CCW?

OFG

Yeah, mine is the same way (w/ the 4 "R"s)

 

[oldfatguy]

You know what. Looking at it now the L and R must be independent of the numbers.

L with an arrow up means turn that direction (clockwise) to go left. Ditto R with the arrow down (counterclockwise).

.

Yup, you got it. The pictures help.

OFG

 

[dbransco]

Interesting.

This is a 3-20 and it looks like the windage knob has a reverse operation

This is a CW model (look at the elevation turret).

 

[oldfatguy]

Interesting.

This is a 3-20 and it looks like the windage knob has a reverse operation

That scope has CW turrets which are opposite of CCW. S&B offers a choice.

OFG

 

[pmclaine]

Disregarding the CCW/CW design I thought the scale and the direction arrow were married. So "1L^" indicated 1 mil left and turning past one mil left moved you more left. Understanding that the mil scale is independent of the point of impact direction arrow makes it clear.

The rifle is just starting to settle in and fortunately my time with it has been foreplay. I guess the best is yet to come.

 

[scudzuki]

The "R" and "L" markings refer to reticle movement. In your case with your original impacts being left of target (for the sake of argument, lets say 0.1 mil), you would adjust by dialing 0.1 mil "L" (moving the reticle left to your impacts). Then on your following shots you aim on target and you essentially "pulled" your POI to the target.

NO.

R and L are the direction the POI move. The reticle moves the opposite direction.

Joe

 

[dbransco]

NO.

R and L are the direction the POI move. The reticle moves the opposite direction.

Joe

Yeah, thanks Joe. I too was associating the L/R with the adjacent numbers.

 

[Red Belly]

I just went through this when I was zeroing my 3-20 last week. I started to dial wind & then my impact moved in opposite direction it took me a minute to figure it out

I shoot & belong to Harvard as well. I'll keep an eye out for you next time.

 

[drum13]

Could you Massholes please PM me and let me know where this 300 yard range is and if I can go?

 

[Coloradocop]

I think the problem is that the turret is marked L and R. When the turret is turned toward R, bullet impact moves left. If this is the case, the markings are counter intuitive. Even my bushnell moves bullet impact right when turned toward "R."

I think that's the case for the OP, as I dealt with it myself with my S&B. I rarely dial for windage (usually just hold with the reticle). But, the first time I tried dialing for windage on this scope I thought that there was a problem with my scope. It was definitely counterintuitive to me... the markings weren't as easily interpreted on the windage dial (to me) as they were on any of my other scopes. I showed the scope to four people (who all shoot) and asked them to look at the scope and tell me how to move the point of impact left, in their opinion. I got two people stating one way, and two stating the other way.

I felt really stupid after I asked the store about the issue: get a $3,400 scope, then can't figure out my left from my right. But, even looking at it right now I can see how you could convince yourself to read the markings either way.

 

[pmclaine]

I just went through this when I was zeroing my 3-20 last week. I started to dial wind & then my impact moved in opposite direction it took me a minute to figure it out

I shoot & belong to Harvard as well. I'll keep an eye out for you next time.

I'd be happy to have someone get my shit together in person.

 

[19Scout77]

No matter what i do, my ferrari will only go 50 mph and the engine really screams when it does. It gets there really quickly, but won't go any faster. I put the transmission is what i believe is 1 for drive and I am confused. It has this funny third pedal i think is the parking brake like my truck, but i don't use it. Also, every time i stop it bucks and the engine dies. Any help???

 

[pmclaine]

No matter what i do, my ferrari will only go 50 mph and the engine really screams when it does. It gets there really quickly, but won't go any faster. I put the transmission is what i believe is 1 for drive and I am confused. It has this funny third pedal i think is the parking brake like my truck, but i don't use it. Also, every time i stop it bucks and the engine dies. Any help???

Silly everyone knows the Italian engineers did everything backwards. The third pedal is used in conjunction with the second pedal. You pump them both back and forth and they turn a little chain pulley setup that drives the rear axle and makes you go faster. Its Pedal Cardoni drive.

Well at least you got what your heart and brain really wanted. When you figure it out you wont have wasted money on having to buy again and you will be able to enjoy one of the finest designed cars.

Whatever you do dont go anywhere near the owners manual thats just full of blah, blah, blah.

 

[sib1948]

Kinda stupid thought process, if you ask me. My Nightforce, March and Viper Razor HD all work the same. Are all German brains backwards or just S&B designers? I have not heard of these issues from the Steiner or Kahls followers! Nice looking scope though, if I was in an alternate reverse Universe!

 

[19Scout77]

Silly everyone knows the Italian engineers did everything backwards. The third pedal is used in conjunction with the second pedal. You pump them both back and forth and they turn a little chain pulley setup that drives the rear axle and makes you go faster. Its Pedal Cardoni drive.

Well at least you got what your heart and brain really wanted. When you figure it out you wont have wasted money on having to buy again and you will be able to enjoy one of the finest designed cars.

Whatever you do dont go anywhere near the owners manual thats just full of blah, blah, blah.

Well played sir!

 

[oldfatguy]

What part of CCW = RT is hard to understand?

OFG

 

[pmclaine]

Kinda stupid thought process, if you ask me. My Nightforce, March and Viper Razor HD all work the same. Are all German brains backwards or just S&B designers? I have not heard of these issues from the Steiner or Kahls followers! Nice looking scope though, if I was in an alternate reverse Universe!

Nah its not that bad. It was confusing to me because I assumed the number, direction and arrow info were all one information set. It makes total sense understanding they are independent information. Im sure someplace in the manual this is explained - too bad setting the zero was the only part of it I have read.

From info provided in this thread it seems that some scopes are marked with just one direction (R) and arrows in 4 different spots on the turret. That would be more clear.

Had the direction and turn info not been lined up right beside the 1 mil mark I wouldnt have so readily made the assumption I did.

Not the end of the world most of my shooting has been done with holds. I was lucky performing zero as windage changes were not required. This doesnt change my opinion about my purchase.

 

[hlee]

What part of CCW = RT is hard to understand?

OFG

Red/green color blindness is a confusing disorder to have. You see one but your brain tells you it could be the other. Imagine coming up to a street light and seeing a green light, but it is where you expect the red light to be. Is it really a green light (misplaced) or is it a red light? The orientation says one thing but the markings say another. Of course, traffic gives clues to context of the lights...

This is very similar to the scope markings shown in the picture above. The markings seem to suggest that turning in the direction of the arrow will give the correction denoted by the marking (R or L). Because the direction markings are on the turret and move with the turret, they are counter intuitive as marked. It is possible that I am not smart enough to use a S&B scope, however, I find the markings (on the scope body) of this bushnell scope to be much easier to understand...

 

[hlee]

No matter what i do, my ferrari will only go 50 mph and the engine really screams when it does. It gets there really quickly, but won't go any faster. I put the transmission is what i believe is 1 for drive and I am confused. It has this funny third pedal i think is the parking brake like my truck, but i don't use it. Also, every time i stop it bucks and the engine dies. Any help???

This analogy would be more appropriate if the gas pedal was where someone would expect a break to be, and if the lever marked gear selection operated the wind shield wipers...

 

[pmclaine]

That right there I understand as clockwise = left, counterclockwise = right.

Still my only excuse is being too lazy to read the directions on a close to $4K scope.

I dont blame the German engineers. I cant really fault a people whos language requires a construct of words equating to "the electric train that runs underground in a tunnel to carry passengers" instead of saying "the subway".

(Eine elektrische Passagierbahn, die in Tunneln im Untergrund fährt)

 

[19Scout77]

Red/green color blindness is a confusing disorder to have. You see one but your brain tells you it could be the other. Imagine coming up to a street light and seeing a green light, but it is where you expect the red light to be. Is it really a green light (misplaced) or is it a red light? The orientation says one thing but the markings say another. Of course, traffic gives clues to context of the lights...

This is very similar to the scope markings shown in the picture above. The markings seem to suggest that turning in the direction of the arrow will give the correction denoted by the marking (R or L). Because the direction markings are on the turret and move with the turret, they are counter intuitive as marked. It is possible that I am not smart enough to use a S&B scope, however, I find the markings (on the scope body) of this bushnell scope to be much easier to understand...

Wtf are you talking about. No matter the location of the markings, the windage knobs on both the sb and the bushnell scopes tell you to turn the knobs in the same direction for the same result. This thread is too dumb for words.

 

[chemist1]

The method I use doesn't require any markings. Point the thumb of your right hand in the direction you want the bullet to impact then curl your fingers. The direction you curl your fingers indicates which direction the turret should be turned. This will work on any CCW scope and requires no understanding of the up, down, left or right markings.

 

[hlee]

Because of the proximity of the "R" and the "L" to the numbered graduations on the S&B scope, the markings appear to read as "1R" and "1L." This would seem to suggest that turning toward "1R" would give a correction right. Unfortunately, this is turning in the opposite direction of the arrow indication for "R." The confusion lies in that it is not immediately obvious that the "R" and the "L" are part of the arrow markings and not part of the numbered markings. Because the direction markings are in the turret along with the mil gradations, it is not immediately obvious that the two sets of markings are somewhat independent. Having the direction markings on the scope body disentangles the two sets of markings and makes it much easier to understand the two different sets of marked instructions. 19Scount77, congratulations for being very smart. You have used a lot of words in a threat too dumb for any of them...

The allusion to red/green color blindness is called an analogy. Analogy: Like an Italian sports car, but different.

 

[RonboF117]

All of the points discussed here show how difficult it is to make a product whose use is both intuitive and easy to remember under stress. That is why everything my company designs goes through a rigorous human factors/human performance engineering process. In the test pilot community it is referred to as PVI (pilot vehicle interface) or HMI (human machine interface). You are faced with a problem requiring an adjustment of an object before you. Can you easily manipulate the object and get the desired outcome without having to really think about it? Anytime we can keep the manipulation in the gross motor skill side of the equation, we know (at least theoretically) that under stress you will still be able to use that piece of equipment in a timely and accurate manner. That is why the ACOG and Aimpoint series are so effective. Put the red dot on the bad guy and squeeze the trigger or put the cross hairs on the "3" line and you will hit a man-sized target at 300 yards.

As we look at optical devices on the battlefield, as an end user, you don't care if the reticle moves in the direction the turrets are moving or opposite. You want to quickly know how to correct from your last shot that wasn't where you wanted it. That is why I try to emphasize the "wood screw" or "right hand rule". Under stress, anyone can point their thumb and curl their fingers and make the impacts go where you want them to whether it is elevation or windage.

I hope this helps to make things a little more clear.

Edit: I don't want the first line of the above post to be construed as me implying S&B doesn't do HF/HPE when they design their scopes. They do; they're smart folks with good designs. I was making the point that WE scrutinize our products in the HF/HPE areas as part of the design and fielding process.

 

[oldfatguy]

The method I use doesn't require any markings. Point the thumb of your right hand in the direction you want the bullet to impact then curl your fingers. The direction you curl your fingers indicates which direction the turret should be turned. This will work on any CCW scope and requires no understanding of the up, down, left or right markings.

That pretty much boils it down, but same as remembering CCW=RT & UP, you gotta remember which hand to use.

OFG

 

[MrSwede]

Only on SH can so much debacle be made about how to turn a knob.

 

[drum13]

Funny this came up. I was at the range with a friend recently and let him use my Leupold scope. I mounted it on his rifle. As he was trying to zero it in, after numerous shots - he says my knobs are backwards and fk'd up.

He kept chasing his shots going further in the wrong direction. He wasn't listening or believing my explanation but I just couldn't communicate it to him in a way that he could understand or relate to what was happening, how the reticle moves, etc.

 

[pmclaine]

No more comment needed I fixed the problem. I just mounted the scope upside down and Im good to go.

Unfortunately I dialed in some elevation and shot the club bench.

 

[pmclaine]

Edit: I don't want the first line of the above post to be construed as me implying S&B doesn't do HF/HPE when they design their scopes. They do; they're smart folks with good designs. I was making the point that WE scrutinize our products in the HF/HPE areas as part of the design and fielding process.

In doing so I wonder if they found that the trained sniper (the market for their scope - Govt contracts being good for profit and creating civilian sales) has a different method of thinking and viewing his environment than a plinker like me.

The sniper looks out at terrain he sees - Tree(not a target), Rock(not a target), Gulley(No targets), depression(No targets), river bed(No targets). While when I look at terrain I think "Oh what a beautiful panorama".

Likewise I looked at the elevation knob and I saw "1 mil left elevation. add more by moving in the direction of the arrow" while a Sniper sees "mil register marks(check), right direction arrow CCW (check). Hmmm if this theory holds true does the sniper go to the zoo and look out to see "Ears, small tail, big body, gray, trunk, tusks - Oh its a fucking elephant!" I don't think so.

Just a thought.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they go into a classroom somewhere and just like learning "left lace over right" or "yellow stains in front, brown stains in back" they are taught the use of the scope.

Coming from MA I'm at a disadvantage. There are few places where you see any of the nice shooting equipment and fewer people that actually own it. I'm a member at a great club. I know there are some good shooters there but the money seems to go into class III rather than high end optics and rifles. Im more likely to hear full auto fire (yes Mr. Romney even in MA MGs are legal) than see another shooter at the 300 yard range. I hear tell of a Larue or two and I have seen some nice across the course space guns but no mentors for this type gear.

Who needs them anyway when I can come here and publicly show my ass.

 

[Cncjerry]

That right there I understand as clockwise = left, counterclockwise = right.

Still my only excuse is being too lazy to read the directions on a close to $4K scope.

I dont blame the German engineers. I cant really fault a people whos language requires a construct of words equating to "the electric train that runs underground in a tunnel to carry passengers" instead of saying "the subway".

(Eine elektrische Passagierbahn, die in Tunneln im Untergrund fährt)

Pennsylvania Dutch, "throw your father down the stairs his shoes", usually followed by, "why dontcha."

 

[pmclaine]

Pennsylvania Dutch, "throw your father down the stairs his shoes", usually followed by, "why dontcha."

I want to know who they are calling fährt

(Eine elektrische Passagierbahn, die in Tunneln im Untergrund fährt)

 

[scudzuki]

In doing so I wonder if they found that the trained sniper (the market for their scope - Govt contracts being good for profit and creating civilian sales) has a different method of thinking and viewing his environment than a plinker like me.

The sniper looks out at terrain he sees - Tree(not a target), Rock(not a target), Gulley(No targets), depression(No targets), river bed(No targets). While when I look at terrain I think "Oh what a beautiful panorama".

Likewise I looked at the elevation knob and I saw "1 mil left elevation. add more by moving in the direction of the arrow" while a Sniper sees "mil register marks(check), right direction arrow CCW (check). Hmmm if this theory holds true does the sniper go to the zoo and look out to see "Ears, small tail, big body, gray, trunk, tusks - Oh its a fucking elephant!" I don't think so.

Just a thought.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they go into a classroom somewhere and just like learning "left lace over right" or "yellow stains in front, brown stains in back" they are taught the use of the scope.

Coming from MA I'm at a disadvantage. There are few places where you see any of the nice shooting equipment and fewer people that actually own it. I'm a member at a great club. I know there are some good shooters there but the money seems to go into class III rather than high end optics and rifles. Im more likely to hear full auto fire (yes Mr. Romney even in MA MGs are legal) than see another shooter at the 300 yard range. I hear tell of a Larue or two and I have seen some nice across the course space guns but no mentors for this type gear.

Who needs them anyway when I can come here and publicly show my ass.

I've yet to find a club down here in SE PA that allows FA fire. Even "rapid fire" will get you kicked out. Oh well.

Joe

 

[drum13]

Coming from MA I'm at a disadvantage. There are few places where you see any of the nice shooting equipment and fewer people that actually own it. I'm a member at a great club. I know there are some good shooters there but the money seems to go into class III rather than high end optics and rifles. ........

So true, I feel ya on that !

 

[pmclaine]

I've yet to find a club down here in SE PA that allows FA fire. Even "rapid fire" will get you kicked out. Oh well.

Joe

Quirky for MA, huh? The norm here is as you describe.

Its a rare day that I dont hear full auto fire on the range dedicated to its use. My wallet sheds tears just listening to the staccato of the ammo forget the hardware. Im sure the FA guys are doing the right thing with protecting their interests.

The thing that gets me is the busiest gun store in eastern MA is packed from open to close. The gun handling skills are scary and I assume new buyers. I understand this past weekend on the state tax holiday there was a 2 hour wait to get in this place.

Where are these people when it comes to preserving the sport?

 

[pmclaine]

So true, I feel ya on that !

Im trying Ive met at least two people so far with an interest but no equipment. Ive let them fire my rifle (trainig them to turn CCW knobs CW for right of course) in hopes they will get bit.

For my troubles they must sign their mortal souls over to me and do my bidding on the first Tuesday after a Monday every November for the rest of their lives.

 

[scudzuki]

Quirky for MA, huh? The norm here is as you describe.

Its a rare day that I dont hear full auto fire on the range dedicated to its use. My wallet sheds tears just listening to the staccato of the ammo forget the hardware. Im sure the FA guys are doing the right thing with protecting their interests.

The thing that gets me is the busiest gun store in eastern MA is packed from open to close. The gun handling skills are scary and I assume new buyers. I understand this past weekend on the state tax holiday there was a 2 hour wait to get in this place.

Where are these people when it comes to preserving the sport?

Hopefully they all get active, join the NRA at the least.

Joe