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Sidearms & Scatterguns  Why open carry?

sandwarrior

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"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit that had he been wearing Armani it might have been an ostentatious display, but you've heard testimony here today that the display was in fact sarcastic and flatulent, yet understated..."

I don't know if you are LE and have a finite definition of what is and is not brandishing. BUT, where I come from that is called "brandishing". Nevada. Back when it was very "pro-gun". Pull a gun out and set it on your table without a good reason is likely to get you kicked out on the spot. Any further argument would result in a severe beating. Probably repeated if you don't seem to come forth with the attitude, that if you carry, you damn well don't pull it out of the holster in a public place of business. Unless you need to use it.

I wouldn't have a second thought about telling a patron to "Get the fuck out of my place of business, if you unholster that here." "And, if you want to come back we will discuss your habits before you return."

Wearing Armani is a lot lower on my list of stupid things to do than unholstering a gun in a public place of business. So you know there was no sarcasm intended, I mean it about pulling out a gun and laying on a table. The only reason I said splitting hairs is you seem to think it's okay to pull out a gun in public. As long as they don't point it at someone, right?

Thus my statement about "brinksmanship". We don't need to take this to the line with public displays of stupidity. We need to take it to the line in Legislatures across the nation and Congress in a legal manner. And showing the public us 2A people are not here to threaten or look mean. Most cases quite the opposite. Again, not being sarcastic.
 
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Graham

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Wearing Armani is a lot lower on my list of stupid things to do than unholstering a gun in a public place of business.
That so depends on the circles in which you travel.

Me: I've never looked good in wide lapels. But then, in 1989, along came the Sicilians and suddenly tall people could pull it off. Since then I have stuck with CCW and Canali, although it's hard to justify ripping the lining of a five thousand dollar suit. Not a crisis of conscience, just sayin'...,


http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/95995449.html
 
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Longshot38

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Carry method is a tactic. The choice of how (open vs concealed) and where (on your body) you carry should be made from the tactical standpoint. Most of us in our everyday lives should be concealed. Being concealed offers us the most and best tactical advantages.

So what advantage does open carry offer us in our everyday lives? Not much at all given the current CONUS threat assessments. Though if the threat climate changes the tactic of open carry will become the norm. Previous incidents like the LA Riots and post Katrina brought a lot of open carry. This allowed people to posture with open carry telling everyone passing by, "Don't mess with my neighborhood". If or I should say, when we experience our next large scale civil unrest you will see more open carry.

Even from the LE side I stress to the plain clothes cops and detectives that concealed carry is often the best. When I worked in our detective bureau I spent more time just interviewing people than anything else. The act of concealed carry allowed me to gain rapport with people. Though if I was going to a higher threat situation I open carried.

To a degree you are right and to a degree you are wrong. Carry method is a tactic but not the only consideration when one carries. As for how this applies to everyones daily lives is a question that is not so simple. How do you live? Is it the same as how I live? Do you live a rural, suburban, or urban setting? What do you do and where do you go during the course of your daily activities? These are all things that have a great deal to do with the methods one chooses to carry. For example a farmer who spends most of his days on tractor has little reason to conceal. On the other had a individual who lives a suburban/urban life style and spends most of his days in such environments should be concealing most of the time. And another, more personal example, living in the Lone Star State OC is only allowed on private property. However this state encompasses vastly different regions both in terms of geography and demographics. The way people live in Dallas is VERY different from the way people live in west TX. So should the same standard(s) apply to those two very different ways of life? So back to my original point. What is right for one is not nesseccarily right for another. And to paint this debate in such a broad stroke is beyond absurd.
 

dang472

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    When I moved from Illinois to Arizona, the first time I saw a dude pumping gas with a Glock 17 on his side, it was a little weird and refreshing. The only plain clothes people with guns where I grew up were detectives and maybe FBI. I'm not against the carry method, it just puts you into a position where you better know every little town law and you'll have to be prepared to be asked to leave if a store owner wants you to. I went from a P220 to an LCP because I could throw that little gun in my front pocket and take it everywhere. Yes I took it into prohibited areas like the post office and movie theaters. I'm not advocating its right but when you need to grab a few stamps, I'd rather not take off my full size pistol and leave it in the car because I only open carry.

    I'm also not the guy who thinks he needs a full sized service pistol, 3 mags full of 45 auto, flashlight, backup gun, and a knife just in case the Armenian Mafia confronts me in Walmart.
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    ...a full sized service pistol, 3 mags full of 45 auto, flashlight, backup gun, and a knife just in case the Armenian Mafia confronts me in Walmart.
    First of all, Armenian organized criminals are badasses. Second, better to stay out of the bath towel section if you haven't got a full size duty pistol and you know what's good for you. Lol!
     

    usmc02xx

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    I'm also not the guy who thinks he needs a full sized service pistol, 3 mags full of 45 auto, flashlight, backup gun, and a knife just in case the Armenian Mafia confronts me in Walmart.

    damn armenains. becuase of them i have to carry 6 extra mags and sbr in the trunk. bastards... great line.
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    I saw the movie Eastern Promises. I saw it with an Armenian friend who used to be an arms dealer. So I know how hard it is to open carry in a Turkish bathhouse. Now add the whole Turkey-Armenia historical thing and you will be lucky to get out with your retention holster attached.

    LMFAO!


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    pappy42

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    It's probably legal to cut off my own dick; however, I won't do it! To me; that's a close parallel to open carry.
     

    cowboy_bravo

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    To a degree you are right and to a degree you are wrong. Carry method is a tactic but not the only consideration when one carries. As for how this applies to everyones daily lives is a question that is not so simple. How do you live? Is it the same as how I live? Do you live a rural, suburban, or urban setting? What do you do and where do you go during the course of your daily activities? These are all things that have a great deal to do with the methods one chooses to carry. For example a farmer who spends most of his days on tractor has little reason to conceal. On the other had a individual who lives a suburban/urban life style and spends most of his days in such environments should be concealing most of the time. And another, more personal example, living in the Lone Star State OC is only allowed on private property. However this state encompasses vastly different regions both in terms of geography and demographics. The way people live in Dallas is VERY different from the way people live in west TX. So should the same standard(s) apply to those two very different ways of life? So back to my original point. What is right for one is not nesseccarily right for another. And to paint this debate in such a broad stroke is beyond absurd.

    Longshot,
    You haven't a clue of tactics do you? I said nothing of painting one self in a corner. General AM Gray said, "In tactics, the most important thing is not whether you go left or right, but why you go left or right.” In a nut shell that is my point. Know WHY you are doing something. The "why we do something" should be chosen specifically because it puts us at an advantage to what ever our threat is.

    Your farmer example is ridiculous. I am familiar with the farmer and rancher, they are a minority but the same tactics apply. Your tactics change with the environment regardless of who you are and where you are. The farmer in Ohio is typically concerned with dispatching coyotes and groundhogs during the course of his day. Other concerns are the possible threats to him and his family. In this capacity he is or should be carrying a long gun. As a teenager I worked on two farms and both had the same mentality. However; the farmer goes into town to run some errands and his tactics must change so he leaves the long gun and conceals a handgun. Can he carry OC? In the state of Ohio he can but what does it gain him? If there is no obvious, identified threat, it gains him very little in advantage but gains him a lot of attention.

    So please explain how the way people live in West TX vs Dallas plays a part in this CC vs OC discussion? I have spent a lot of time in SE TX and have carried concealed (primarily) and open carried a few times. The carry option was always a tactical choice.

    I have spent the past 17+ years carrying weapons as a professional. Military, security and law enforcement, regardless of the job there were instances I worked in an overt capacity and instances I worked in a covert capacity. The capacity in which I worked was not always my choice and prior to stepping off we all knew what we gained and what we lost tactically and how it may affect us in the long run.

    A typical citizen in the CONUS today has little reason, tactically, to open carry. It gains them very little.
     

    Longshot38

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    Longshot,
    You haven't a clue of tactics do you? I said nothing of painting one self in a corner. General AM Gray said, "In tactics, the most important thing is not whether you go left or right, but why you go left or right.” In a nut shell that is my point. Know WHY you are doing something. The "why we do something" should be chosen specifically because it puts us at an advantage to what ever our threat is.

    Your farmer example is ridiculous. I am familiar with the farmer and rancher, they are a minority but the same tactics apply. Your tactics change with the environment regardless of who you are and where you are. The farmer in Ohio is typically concerned with dispatching coyotes and groundhogs during the course of his day. Other concerns are the possible threats to him and his family. In this capacity he is or should be carrying a long gun. As a teenager I worked on two farms and both had the same mentality. However; the farmer goes into town to run some errands and his tactics must change so he leaves the long gun and conceals a handgun. Can he carry OC? In the state of Ohio he can but what does it gain him? If there is no obvious, identified threat, it gains him very little in advantage but gains him a lot of attention.

    So please explain how the way people live in West TX vs Dallas plays a part in this CC vs OC discussion? I have spent a lot of time in SE TX and have carried concealed (primarily) and open carried a few times. The carry option was always a tactical choice.

    I have spent the past 17+ years carrying weapons as a professional. Military, security and law enforcement, regardless of the job there were instances I worked in an overt capacity and instances I worked in a covert capacity. The capacity in which I worked was not always my choice and prior to stepping off we all knew what we gained and what we lost tactically and how it may affect us in the long run.

    A typical citizen in the CONUS today has little reason, tactically, to open carry. It gains them very little.

    I know a lot more about tactics then you seem to think I do. Tactics do not end when on puts down a gun, rather tactics are something that we employee all throughout our lives. The circumstances of our situtation determine our tactics, not the other way around. And I question rather you do understand my farmer example. Minority or not they are part of society and the way they live (aka their circumstances) are not the same as yours or the majority. And I know this because I have spent a great deal of time on a tractor and in rural settings. And I can tell you unequivically that the circumstances are not the same.

    Look if I lived in a more metropolitian area I would agree that CC is almost always a better choice. But the fact is I don't live in such an enviroment, I only work in it. And I am profoundly aware of the issues that come with OC in such a scenario. But when talking about very rural and remote areas such as desserts of the SW where you can drive for hours and walk for days without seeing another sole then CC offers little tactical advantage and quite frequently it is a disadvantage. The disadvantages come from a great number of sources and you can figure those out yourself seeing as you know so much about the topic. On the other hand were I to be spending the majority of my time in public (which I don't), and around a larger populous of people then my circumstances have changed. As such those circumstances dictate different tactics.

    Now I am not going to get into a dick measureing contest with you over credentials or what we do for a living. But I'd suggest not going around thinking that just because you have carried a weapon for a long time or have been an LEO and or solider that atomatically know what is best for everybody else. So once more. OC or CC, it is something that EVERY individual have figure out for themselves based upon their specific circumstances. It IS NOT somthing that is clear cut or black and white. And to be perfectly frank tactically sound or not the right to bear arms is enough reason for someone to OC. So if CC is your choice then that is great and I'm glad it works for you. But it is absolutely wrong to stand on the hill side, look down to another man, and tell him his is wrong simply because you skin your cat a different way.
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    But I'd suggest not going around thinking that just because you have carried a weapon for a long time or have been an LEO and or solider that atomatically know what is best for everybody else...

    But it is absolutely wrong to stand on the hill side, look down to another man, and tell him his is wrong simply because you skin your cat a different way.
    CB is not preaching to you, he's telling you what you need to know from a law enforcement perspective.

    He's the guy that gets called. He's the guy that will have to take the suspect down at gunpoint. He's the guy who has experience with how open carry affects real world situations.

    On this issue I would spend more time listening to a law enforcement point of view than lecturing to it.
     

    Longshot38

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    CB is not preaching to you, he's telling you what you need to know from a law enforcement perspective.

    He's the guy that gets called. He's the guy that will have to take the suspect down at gunpoint. He's the guy who has experience with how open carry affects real world situations.

    On this issue I would spend more time listening to a law enforcement point of view than lecturing to it.

    And once again I'm not here to compare credentials. His presective is one built from his experience and mine is one built from mine. He is very much entitled to his view, he has earned it. But he is not the only one that has earned his stripes.
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    And once again I'm not here to compare credentials....But he is not the only one that has earned his stripes.
    That's a comparison. What is your experience on this issue?

    Look, if everyone carried openly open carry wouldn't be a problem. I have walked down the street visibly armed in countries where doing that won't get you a second glance. No problem. But here almost everyone will see you as a potential threat. And the reality is: That's a huge problem, whether or not you think that in a more perfect world it shouldn't be.

    Amateurs teach that being armed is a deterrent to crime. Professionals know better. The idea that carrying a gun makes you safer exists mostly in the minds of people who read gun magazines. The truth is that arming yourself in response to your fears has a very real potential for disaster. The fact that you have the freedom to be a fool doesn't mean that you should exercise your right to be either an a-hole or a victim.

    Casually showing off your gun only makes you a target. More importantly, serious criminals who are prepared to take your life understand that such practices are the mark of an amateur. Even if you are one (I don't specifically mean you, Longshot38) there's no reason to advertise that fact.
     
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    Longshot38

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    That's a comparison. What is your experience on this issue?

    Look, if everyone carried openly open carry wouldn't be a problem. I have walked down the street visibly armed in countries where doing that won't get you a second glance. No problem. But here almost everyone will see you as a potential threat. And the reality is: That's a huge problem, whether or not you think that in a more perfect world it shouldn't be.

    Amateurs teach that being armed is a deterrent to crime. Professionals know better. The idea that carrying a gun makes you safer exists mostly in the minds of people who read gun magazines. The truth is that arming yourself in response to your fears has a very real potential for disaster. The fact that you have the freedom to be a fool doesn't mean that you should exercise your right to be either an a-hole or a victim.

    Casually showing off your gun only makes you a target. More importantly, serious criminals who are prepared to take your life understand that such practices are the mark of an amateur. Even if you are one (I don't specifically mean you, Longshot38) there's no reason to advertise that fact.

    I'm not debating the merits of OC or CC. All I'm saying that that circumstances dictate tactics and as such painting the debate in such a broad stroke is a failure to comprehend that. CC and OC BOTH have their place. And again the arument assumes that one is always in the publics eye. I don't know about ya'll but I carry from the time I put my pants on in the morning till the time I take them off at night. And during that time I could be almost anywhere and doing anything. For the most part I am around the house and have no need to CC but when out and about in town CC all of sudden is only logical (and legal but that is a different matter). But that is just how I live. It doesn't apply to everyone equally and it certainly doesn't mean the OC should be the primary means of carry. It only says in my specific set of circumstances it is what I have found that works for me.

    Being armed doesn't prevent crime rather it is all about having options and I like options. Just like any other tactic or tool when employeed improperly the consiquences can be disasterous. As such we should be educated and we should be trained. But I will never agree that one must meet a training/education requirement in order to exercise a right just because the potential for negitive consiquences exist. That goes against the entire concept on the individual right that reaffirmed in the Bill of Rights.

    On the subject of criminals. Most criminals we encouter are not professionals, rather they are rank amateurs (and rather stupid at that). Most are common theives (or something similar) whom never think about checking out a room before the commision of their crime. The reality of the world we live in is that few people will ever be face to face with violent crime and even fewer will ever have an encouter with seasoned criminal who is well educated in his craft. As such it is well within the relm of possiblity that even while OC a criminal will not notice their intended victim is armed prior to the commision of their crime. But again this is to say that CC is inappropriate, in fact in many cases it is the most appropriate manner of carry. Rather this is again going to the point of CC or OC is not a black and white issue. Rather it is a complex issue that only the person choosing to arm themselves can effectively answer.
     

    Cartman

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    I have not read more than a couple of the posts in this thread so I'm not talking to anyone in particular. But there used to be movement to open carry in California. And I don't mean open carry on a horse through the high country or wilderness, I mean right in downtown. In the face of all the arguments about the 2nd, that it was legal in California, "I'm an honest citizen", blah, blah, blah, I opined then that all that would be accomplished is freaking people out and getting a law passed banning open carry in California. And guess what? Open carry is now illegal in California. But not just in urban centers -- everywhere.

    By definition, 50% of all Americans are below the median level of intelligence. Think about that every election. Facts about guns and crime are all but irrelevant and won't be reported widely anyway. All you're doing with open carry like this is the Wild West is giving more ammo, pardon the pun, to the crowd claiming citizens owning guns will lead to Wild West shootouts on the street. And sooner or later the law will catch up to public opinion -- facts be damned.

    And while I'm not going to claim to be Johnny high-speed operator (not that the news stories I've seen over the years suggest that's all that helpful in confrontations on the street), it strikes me that if a truly bad guy sees your sidearm he knows you've got something worth stealing and that it would probably be prudent to just shoot you, rather than come up and announce he plans to steal your gun. Thus obviating any opportunity to defend yourself whilst retaining any element of surprise. If I knew going in to a situation that I would be facing an armed threat, well sure, I would love a sidearm placed within easy reach on my hip and would be glad I read Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner". But I'm not going to experience a situation like that until the great zombie apocalypse.

    Your mileage and opinion may vary.
     
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    cowboy_bravo

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    Longshot,

    I don't even know where to begin. Your statements are contradicting. One minute you are saying it is up to the person and the situation... Exactly what I am saying. Then you start building a case for OC no matter what. The part that discredits your argument is the Bill of Rights and 2A comments. This is what ruins it for everyone, doing it just because you can creates problems. OC or CC, pick one because it works for the environment not because you are making a political statement.

    Your statement regarding criminals is false. The criminals that the everyday citizen is going to encounter through acts of theft are professionals. I deal with these people daily. They are observant to the point they recognize plain clothes loss prevention personnel employees at retail stores. Thieves often work in teams of 2 or more, many of them understand the difference between a Theft, B&E, Burglary and Robbery. Many of these thieves select their targets (homes, garages, sheds, people, cars, stores) after observing them and doing their own risk assessments.

    You don't want to "compare credentials" or "get into a dick measuring contest" but yet you are talking about things you know nothing about.
     

    Longshot38

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    Longshot,

    I don't even know where to begin. Your statements are contradicting. One minute you are saying it is up to the person and the situation... Exactly what I am saying. Then you start building a case for OC no matter what. The part that discredits your argument is the Bill of Rights and 2A comments. This is what ruins it for everyone, doing it just because you can creates problems. OC or CC, pick one because it works for the environment not because you are making a political statement.

    Your statement regarding criminals is false. The criminals that the everyday citizen is going to encounter through acts of theft are professionals. I deal with these people daily. They are observant to the point they recognize plain clothes loss prevention personnel employees at retail stores. Thieves often work in teams of 2 or more, many of them understand the difference between a Theft, B&E, Burglary and Robbery. Many of these thieves select their targets (homes, garages, sheds, people, cars, stores) after observing them and doing their own risk assessments.

    You don't want to "compare credentials" or "get into a dick measuring contest" but yet you are talking about things you know nothing about.

    I never said one should OC all day everyday. All I have ever said is that OC or CC is not a debate that can be painted with the broad stroke you do. For some OC is a viable option for others it is not. That decision is not a simplistic one rather it is complex and dynamic. And one does not have to pick one or the other. Rather it is very simple to do both and do so dynamiclly based upon every changing circumstances. And it is absurd to keep such a static position. If one man deems it appropriate to OC who am I to tell him otherwise. That was his decision based upon his specific set of circumstances. As such I don't support the idea of one or another, rather I support the idea of either or.

    And my statement about criminals is something I get from first hand experience not second hand stories or speculation. Like you I get to deal with all walks of life everyday. And my statement holds very true. The professionals are out there. And they are skilled craftsman capable of running their game very well. But they do not make up the majority of the criminal element. They are the minority.

    But at the end of the day all this irrelevant. Neither of us is going to change eithers minds. So I not going to debate this with you anymore. My position has been made clear as has yours. And there is nothing else to debate.
     
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    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    I find the open carry debate fascinating, because it is one place where gun rights theory and common sense collide.

    The one thing it does do is show how much of the gun control debate is cultural and emotional and how much is practical and political.
     
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    JByrd

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    I don't buy the whole "criminals will who see your firearm are gonna try to rob you of said firearm" im not sayin it doesn't happen, I just think its a needle in the haystack kinda scenario when it does

    there are a few things in common with the vast majority of criminals.

    laziness

    and they try to choose what is "in their minds" the path of least resistance. stealing from the weak,any hussle to keep from having to get up and go to work etc.

    try to think like a lazy idiot..... that's it , your doing good (; do I wanna rob the hillbilly walkin down the street with his open carry loracin? ,oooor that old lady over there all by herself?

    they want easy money. that's why they are criminals remember.

    having said all that, I think open carry is retarded at places like walmart,down town etc. I think its great for on the farm, never know when you may have to get the drop on a rattle mouth copper moccasin. the cows aren't too impressed or trembling in fear when im bossin up in the field with ma xd. feel free to reword all this to sound a lil more Harvard law and upscale if it makes you feel better.

    my .02, but im just a hillbilly
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    I am not saying that every criminal will try to take every exposed firearm.

    But I am saying that one must recognize that, to every conflict within sight and sound of the man openly carrying, that same man is not only bringing a weapon but advertising it's presence.

    If that man does not have solid defensive tactics skills, and if he is not willing to remain mentally vigilant, now no matter what happens he could very easily become my problem. He is already my concern.

    And that's my reservation with uncle Elmo wanting to exercise his Second Amendment rights on the weekend, but without a clue as to the responsibilities that attach.
     
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    Sniper Uncle

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    I am not saying that every criminal will try to take every exposed firearm.

    But I am saying that one must recognize that, to every conflict within sight and sound of the man openly carrying, that same man is not only bringing a weapon but advertising it's presence.

    If that man does not have solid defensive tactics skills, and if he is not willing to remain mentally vigilant, now no matter what happens he could very easily become my problem. He is already my concern.

    And that's my reservation with uncle Elmo wanting to exercise his Second Amendment rights on the weekend, but without a clue as to the responsibilities that attach.

    Graham, I gotta hand it to you. This post puts the whole issue into clear perspective. I like the way you highlight how an OC participant is a concern which could very easily become a problem.

    I personally only OC when hunting, and even then, my side-arm may be partially or mostly concealed. I like the thought that most people have no idea that I am armed, and thus, the criminals are not as aware of their surroundings, and the public is not intimidated or concerned by my being armed. I have found that one of my side-arms conceals very nicely in a IWB type holster, and very few people can tell that I am armed. That makes me more comfortable too. Maybe this is a mistake, to be more at ease, but I think that the more at ease you are, while maintaining vigilance, the more likely you are to pass un-noticed by criminals and the public alike. People who look on edge or uneasy are more easily spotted and more attention is paid to them.
     

    GrantA

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    I had no idea the can of worms I opened when I started this. I have been reading along, there are some great points being made, I'm glad to see the majority of participants here at least feel the same as me.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
     

    Cartman

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    I don't buy the whole "criminals will who see your firearm are gonna try to rob you of said firearm" im not sayin it doesn't happen, I just think its a needle in the haystack kinda scenario when it does

    there are a few things in common with the vast majority of criminals.

    laziness

    and they try to choose what is "in their minds" the path of least resistance. stealing from the weak,any hussle to keep from having to get up and go to work etc.

    try to think like a lazy idiot..... that's it , your doing good (; do I wanna rob the hillbilly walkin down the street with his open carry loracin? ,oooor that old lady over there all by herself?

    they want easy money. that's why they are criminals remember.

    having said all that, I think open carry is retarded at places like walmart,down town etc. I think its great for on the farm, never know when you may have to get the drop on a rattle mouth copper moccasin. the cows aren't too impressed or trembling in fear when im bossin up in the field with ma xd. feel free to reword all this to sound a lil more Harvard law and upscale if it makes you feel better.

    my .02, but im just a hillbilly

    As Graham pointed out, the problem isn't that every criminal will try to take every exposed firearm.

    I'm guessing most people who carry are not carrying because of the lazy criminal looking to avoid trouble that you describe.

    And the beauty of concealed carry is that the actually dangerous criminal doesn't know if the hillbilly is carrying -- or is it granny?

    I find the concept that strong men can and should open carry so that the lazy criminal will target a helpless granny instead unappealing at best.
     
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    45.308

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    I open carry because I can and its a smart thing to do. The only time I get a look or someone says something is from someone from outside or a cheechako but 99.9999999% of the time nobody says a word or even cares. In fact, standing in line at Carrs someone will ask what load I carry, holster, etc. and I even had LE in uniform ask what I am carrying.

    Tactical advantage, open carry absolutely gives me an advantage.

    Retention, do know about this one but fairly hard to pull my 454 off my chest.

    I walked down a major street with my long gun slung, short gun on chest and for some reason, LE, citizens, politicians, no one seems to care or notice.

    How about our FNRA guy who has his Glock 20 on his chest while working all over the bowl and valley, for those who know him, know what I am talking about. Last time we chatted, he had one women years ago in their RV make a comment to him and like most Alaskans, its Alaska get over it and go back south and stay there.

    Some states or citizens live by open carry and firearms as a way a life and others see it as taboo. Please never ever tell me how to live in my state as you do not live here and I will never ever tell you how to live in yours as I do not live there. Too many citizens telling other citizens how to live these days.
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    ... Proving what I said about public objection to open carry being mainly a cultural issue.

    And I'm not telling you about how to live, I'm telling you about the realities of living with open carry. I don't disagree that people here are free to make mistakes: innocent ones, stupid ones, even fatal ones if they so choose. That's what built this country.

    But I disagree that you have a tactical advantage with open carry over concealed carry.


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    TheShooter

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    I am in big favor of open carry.

    However, I would never personally open carry except the few times I am working on the ranch and have to leave the ranch for some reason such as parts, fuel, etc. of course, this would be in extreme rural areas, so no real issue with criminals.

    Additionally, I like the the idea of open carry for protection of concealed carry. For a long time (no more) in Texas, if your gun became visible, it would be a crime. I am not talking about brandishing, just wind, accidental cot opening, etc. if you have open carry, no hrm, no foul.

    I am a total covert type personality. I have no stickers on my cars for example. I carry concealed as I like the surprise. If someone wants to open carry, that is their choice, not mine, but they should have the choice.

    Just my opinion.
     

    45.308

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    Open carry is not a mistake, innocent, stupid, fatal or otherwise in fact if is preferred for my way of life. Just tell me how or why you plan to CC living in Alaska? I darn near OC everyday not only because I can but its the preferred method of carry that gives me total advantage. Nobody and I mean nobody but outsiders care and it can be seen everyday. Once again its a way of life! I will never ever tell anyone how to live or how to support their Amendment II rights. We need a paradigm shift from the big brother syndrome, it must go away!
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    Exactly right: If everyone carries openly and it's an accepted way of life where you are, then many of the social problems associated with it go away. That's what I said a few posts ago.

    But there's still no tactical advantage to it. And one should still not rely on having the gun as a sole defensive measure. Point being: Alaska ain't comin' to the lower 48 any time soon.

    Far too many people carry openly, their decision having been made on the basis of a world that they think should be rather than the world that is. Their conduct creates a unique set of problems for them, and for those around them, that they too often either refuse to recognize or see as not their 'problem'.

    Purposely ignoring the obvious ramifications of what you are about to do is indeed foolish, as is doing something only because you can, with no consideration for other people.
     
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    Unknown

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    The vast majority of criminals ARE amateurs, but they do try. There are true professionals out there, and many gang members are among them. When I was a law enforcement firearms trainer, it was common knowledge that many of these more "professional" criminals would actually practice snatching a pistol from a holster...even a holster with retention devices on them. As with anything that people practice, some of them are VERY good at it. Fortunately, these true professionals are much more rare than people think....but they DO exist, and they would be more than happy to snatch a pistol from you.

    Weapon retention was an integral part of the program that we taught. It is possible to learn even more retention skills and unusual firearms re-acquisition skills than are taught at the police academy. However, learning these takes a great deal of practice, and more practice. If the skills don't become automatic, you probably won't remember them in a fight.

    Open carry is a personal choice, but I see it as a huge tactical disadvantage. However, just like the ongoing discussion in some firearms forums about carrying a pistol with an empty chamber vs a loaded chamber, choosing a tactical disadvantage is another person's right. Concealing the firearm not only keeps people from knowing it is there, it is also an additional way to help retain your firearm.

    Whenever I see people carrying their firearm open or concealed where the butt of the pistol is right over their kidney, I know they have not really practiced drawing the pistol, or doing retention drills. A great way to learn about why carrying there is not a good idea is to fall onto the butt of your holstered (empty) pistol. The first time the butt of the pistol knocks the wind out of you, and connects with that neat nerve that runs down there it will hurt so badly you will have a hard time standing up for a while.

    In any case, my point is that open carry tells people a great deal...not only that you have a pistol, but how easy it would probably be to either relieve you of the pistol, or how little many people probably practice actually fighting with that pistol. But that is a personal choice, and I support everyone's right to choose for themselves.
     

    Eastbay

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    I feel like concealing would be more of a tactical advantage. Open carry (in public) seems very poser like.
     

    Cartman

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    [...]their decision having been made on the basis of a world that they think should be rather than the world that is.

    Graham, I've been making this complaint since I was a teen. It is painful when one sees grown men hurt my life, my family, and my country, doing it.

    And 45.308 don't take this as a piling on against you -- I'm thinking about the broader universe of individual actors, politicians in particular, and a whole host of issues outside of how one carries a firearm.
     

    45.308

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    Citizens and myself OC in Alaska because of animals, not the creeper kind but actual teeth chewing animals. CC adds seconds to draw VS quicker access OC, CC may be covered by kit Vs OC on the chest. OC is permitted in Alaska for this very reason down to the age of 14. So, every where citizens go you see OC and its not taboo but a way of life. You go to town and you OC, go to shop you OC, its the way of life and yes its hard for anyone outside (not from Alaska) to fathom how we do it. And the biggest complaint is, those from outside always wanting to change Alaska to be in line with the states and how they do it. Again, I refuse to tell someone how to live or exercise their rights.

    I do care how its done anywhere but here and its wrong for anyone who does not live here to tell me what I do is wrong, unsafe, stupid just like I do not care how its done in MI or anywhere else.

    I fully support rights and those who exercise those rights no matter how someone exercises those rights, its not me to judge but to support them or just go about my bizz. I believe this is lost in today's collective thought process.
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    You guys in Alaska have to out-draw animals?

    Seriously: How many times have you shot an animal where seconds count?

    Just asking, because I've been in bear country, and speed draw wasn't a requirement for me, but maybe you know something that I don't.

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    GrantA

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    OC on the chest..
    Hey I'm actually in the market for a chest rig (bandolier?) for a scoped Ruger (blackhawk I think, it's my dads new deer pistol) 7.5" barrel (pretty sure), any recommendations? Post here or pm me whatever you prefer.




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    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    Holy Fuck Graham, you guys are still at it..................
    It's not malicious, it's just a discussion. I'm not carrying openly because I don't need to speed - draw against an angry rattlesnake (which is no joke, BTW).

    And its not like we are 14-year olds hijacking threads by asking what people think we should wear ^^^^^^^^^^^
     
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    GrantA

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    I'm not carrying openly because I don't need to speed - draw against an angry rattlesnake (which is no joke, BTW).
    I'd much rather have a handy-sized shotgun anyway if critters are the concern. It seems to me that an 18-20" shotgun with a comfortable sling would be no more cumbersome than a large framed pistol carried on the chest


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    Cartman

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    Life in Alaska?

    <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Nt6kKhlX8vU" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>
     

    Killswitch Engage

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    You guys in Alaska have to out-draw animals?

    Seriously: How many times have you shot an animal where seconds count?

    Just asking, because I've been in bear country, and speed draw wasn't a requirement for me, but maybe you know something that I don't.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[

    i didn't think a whole lot about this thread and conversation until I saw you post this. You obviously have never been around serious grizzly or even mountain lion territory if you don't think you may need to out draw a dangerous animal. See, they open carry their deadly weapons and use them daily to kill. Their reflexes and senses are honed and keen ready to kill you all the time cause that's what they do for a day job. Watch a few videos of grizz attacks or charges if you think "out drawing" a bear is cute.
     

    Napsters

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    In CA we can not open carry even an unloaded firearm. CCWs are not issued. Since they are not issued I can not get a permit. Most states require a CCW permit that they consider valid. My only option to ever carry a gun is open carry in another state that allows open carry. (Heck my state does not allow open carry pocket knives and my city does not allow concealed...)

    Should I just hope someone will be there with a gun to protect me?
     

    GrantA

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    In CA we can not open carry even an unloaded firearm. CCWs are not issued. Since they are not issued I can not get a permit. Most states require a CCW permit that they consider valid. My only option to ever carry a gun is open carry in another state that allows open carry. (Heck my state does not allow open carry pocket knives and my city does not allow concealed...)

    Should I just hope someone will be there with a gun to protect me?

    Shame on me for not knowing this I guess, I had no idea it was that bad. So you can't legally carry a pocket knife? You better order some of those decap-a-turtles (a guy here makes them and start planning a move. What would the repercussions be for getting caught with a knife? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

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    JByrd

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    #1As Graham pointed out, the problem isn't that every criminal will try to take every exposed firearm.



    #2 I'm guessing most people who carry are not carrying because of the lazy criminal looking to avoid trouble that you describe.

    #3And the beauty of concealed carry is that the actually dangerous criminal doesn't know if the hillbilly is carrying -- or is it granny?

    #4I find the concept that strong men can and should open carry so that the lazy criminal will target a helpless granny instead unappealing at best.

    I will keep this short so maby you can understand cartman

    #1Casually showing off your gun only makes you a target is what he said

    #2 I did not say they wanted to avoid trouble, these are your words not mine. you conceal carry to be prepared for the situation where you are PERCEIVED to be the path of least resistance.

    #3 im Purdy sure we all got that figured out.but thanks

    #4what part of "I think open carry is retarded at places like Walmart, downtown, etc." do you not understand? and to take it a step further and infer that I think we SHOULD open carry so helpless grannys will be targeted is ,well..........

    R E T A R D E D

    read slow and try to concentrate
     

    Cartman

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    As Graham pointed out, the problem isn't that every criminal will try to take every exposed firearm.
    I will keep this short so maby you can understand cartman

    #1Casually showing off your gun only makes you a target is what he said
    I am not saying that every criminal will try to take every exposed firearm.
    I'm guessing most people who carry are not carrying because of the lazy criminal looking to avoid trouble that you describe.
    #2 I did not say they wanted to avoid trouble, these are your words not mine.
    I don't buy the whole "criminals will who see your firearm are gonna try to rob you of said firearm" im not sayin it doesn't happen, I just think its a needle in the haystack kinda scenario when it does
    there are a few things in common with the vast majority of criminals.
    laziness
    and they try to choose what is "in their minds" the path of least resistance. stealing from the weak,any hussle to keep from having to get up and go to work etc.
    try to think like a lazy idiot..... that's it , your doing good (; do I wanna rob the hillbilly walkin down the street with his open carry loracin? ,oooor that old lady over there all by herself?
    they want easy money. that's why they are criminals remember.
    It still sounds like trying to avoid trouble to me.

    I'm guessing most people who carry are not carrying because of the lazy criminal looking to avoid trouble that you describe.
    you conceal carry to be prepared for the situation where you are PERCEIVED to be the path of least resistance.
    I didn't mention concealed carry so now you're putting words in my mouth. I believe people carry to defend themselves from harm.

    And the beauty of concealed carry is that the actually dangerous criminal doesn't know if the hillbilly is carrying -- or is it granny?
    #3 im Purdy sure we all got that figured out.but thanks
    You're more than welcome. I'm glad we can agree.

    I find the concept that strong men can and should open carry so that the lazy criminal will target a helpless granny instead unappealing at best.

    #4what part of "I think open carry is retarded at places like Walmart, downtown, etc." do you not understand? and to take it a step further and infer that I think we SHOULD open carry so helpless grannys will be targeted is ,well..........R E T A R D E D
    read slow and try to concentrate
    I understood perfectly well. I was responding to this:

    try to think like a lazy idiot..... that's it , your doing good (; do I wanna rob the hillbilly walkin down the street with his open carry loracin? ,oooor that old lady over there all by herself?
    my .02, but im just a hillbilly

    Now I'll go slow so you can understand. I didn't assert that you favoured this concept – and you can confirm this by R E A D I N G. But given the thread, and the comment you made above, I stated my feeling that such an attitude is unappealing. If you agree, good for you.

    And Procovert, the next time you want to insult the intelligence of someone you may want to clean up your spelling and grammar first if you want to be taken seriously.
     
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    JByrd

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    I will keep this short so maby you can understand cartman

    #1
    Casually showing off your gun only makes you a target. More importantly, serious criminals who are prepared to take your life understand that such practices are the mark of an amateur.


    #2 I did not say they wanted to avoid trouble, these are your words not mine. you conceal carry to be prepared for the situation where you are PERCEIVED to be the path of least resistance.

    #3 im Purdy sure we all got that figured out.but thanks

    #4what part of "I think open carry is retarded at places like Walmart, downtown, etc." do you not understand? and to take it a step further and infer that I think we SHOULD open carry so helpless grannys will be targeted is ,well..........

    R E T A R D E D

    read slow and try to concentrate

    lets try this again ....remember slooooooooow

    I think the comprehension is where your stumbling, maby you can copy paste and splice all that into spell check ,
     

    JeffLebowski

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    In CA we can not open carry even an unloaded firearm. CCWs are not issued. Since they are not issued I can not get a permit. Most states require a CCW permit that they consider valid. My only option to ever carry a gun is open carry in another state that allows open carry. (Heck my state does not allow open carry pocket knives and my city does not allow concealed...)

    Should I just hope someone will be there with a gun to protect me?

    You just thank your OC "activists" for "educating" the public. I mean, OC protests worked out so well in CA, right?
     

    45.308

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    I was done with this but I guess one more time. Nope, never shot a speeding brownie but I have been knocked down by ole booboo that came out from head grass from my right. Absolutely no time to draw any weapon, 454, 12ga or 30mm Bushmaster would not have stopped the charge. I was lucky, he knocked me down, decided to jump up on a rock to investigate what was near his cache instead of knowing I was the threat, knock me down and start chewing. That is the only charge I ever encountered but I have been bluffed numerous times down to less than 15 feet or so, the distance is shorten with 1500 pounds of teeth popping you down. I have been charged by more moose than any other animal and I fear bullwinkle more than booboo because bullwinkle does not bluff and will charge and booboo may charge but mostly bluff.

    But the main reason open carry in Alaska is, its primarily on the chest so chores and hobbies do not interfere with the firearm draw. In addition, its best for your firearm to draw if ole booboo is on top of you chewing, not concealed. Its hard to fish or do most anything with 12ga or rifle slung on the body. I go cut wood, fish, hike to Carrs for milk, I slap my OC on instead of wearing the correct pants with belt, CC vest, jacket, shirt, etc, sling my holster and down the road I go...nobody cares by the way...again!

    My wife and I have had a firearm pulled on or aimed directly at us out around Tok. I had no firearm on my body at the time, it was in the back of me Bronco with camping fishing hunting gear. Lesson learned long time ago. Attempted robbed on the streets two times, and yes I OC, dirt bag did not see my weapon until....the other time I was OC and again two dirt bags did not see my weapon but I made it to my rig and well one of them knows what bumped taste like. Another time, I think I was being set up by dirt bag saying he got robbed by some other dirt bags across the street wanting to use my phone and help as he approached me, Yep OC and guess what, he did not know I had my 45 on walking directly at me. I OC'd at work/shop, retail job.

    PD was at 7-11 getting coffee and doughnut (had too) in uniform, coffee bar is at the end of the 8 foot long money counter, dirt bag walked in, pulled a knife all while PD in uniform OC of course was standing at the end of the counter in full view and direct line of sight entering the front door. Dirt bag did not notice the OC or even PD in uniform standing 4 feet away!

    The idea that dirt bags see and will go for OC in my experience says they do not see OC, pure tunnel vision from them with little perception of their surroundings. If you have a different experience, so be it and I will not tell you its wrong and/or how to react or do what ever.

    My point main is, I do not care how you do it there so please do not care how I do it here. Why chastise someone for doing what they do if you do not care to, want to or what ever. How does what they do effect what you do? Did they take food from your families mouth, invade you sister, ect so why do you care or how does this effect you? How do you know more what is best for anyone? Why would want to limit their rights? This is the problem with our supposedly freedom society, we have become a collective with someone always knowing what is better for someone else.

    Someone laying a 45 on the table or counter drinking coffee, me, I would weapons check, check my six and most likely leave. But, I would not discourage their rights to do it, unsafe is another issue......

    One more time and last time. Why do you think you know how someone should support their rights, protect themselves and in general live their life?
     

    Graham

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    Why open carry?

    One more time and last time. Why do you think you know how someone should support their rights, protect themselves and in general live their life?
    Because we live together with other people, as part of a society. Because our polity, our way of life, our values and our political system is based on this very concept. And because if you think you are a lone wolf, you are mistaken.
     
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    Emergencynrse

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    I love these discussions. Brings out the best in everyone...

    Understand that it's a personal decision. It is. Do what you want to within the confines of the law.
    I for one accept the responsibility to defend myself, my family, or others that might not even fully appreciate it. To not give in to being a victim.
    To prepare myself. To get out to the range. To participate in IDPA/IPSC as often as possible and develop skills necessary to overcome those of the average ghetto-rat.

    I do not carry for deterrence. I carry concealed so that sheeple can go about their business without anxiety or fear in the presence of a firearm. I have NO scruples about removing from the face of this earth an evil person(s) who would do harm to unsuspecting people with a triple-tap to center mass... That open-carry shit is all ego. Love ya, mean it.